Classic Feel vs Classic Mechanics

[Salimon]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People also seem to assume that less forgiving stuff auto =s harder. IE, the time spent to regain exp loss from a death in EQ with no 96% rez vs no exp loss in most modern mmos.

I do love EQ and always will, and will always play here when I can, but being someone that has raided in top 10 "guilds" for server/world firsts in most MMOs, I can tell you that mechanics in EQ don't even touch current games in terms of "difficulty". That also being said though, I have never seen so many people in a game fail to clear the last content in an expansion till post expansions come out (sadly this mostly applies to later expansions, so not even relevant to p99 difficulty).

Basically what the last paragraph is getting it, is I can see certain aspects being considered hard, like clerics not being able to properly do a CH rotation, but overall difficulty of EQ doesn't in any shape / form compare to modern day MMOs. The only thing it has for it, is are you a player that can handle doing something like exping in the same spot for weeks, maybe months, which some could interpret as hard. I think what term people should really be saying, is EQ feels more rewarding. Not that EQ is or was hard. Hell, games like WoW even have DBM telling you how to do a fight, and it is still harder than EQ (which is something interesting to point out p99 difficulty considering the content will never be "new", it removes a lot of trial / error for most people since and strats that might exist outside of throwing 100000 people at something are mostly irrelevant).

I played in a 25m heroic that was one of the top guilds on Area 52 server in WOW up until a month ago when i found P99. Wow is not difficult at all it is one of the easiest mmos I've ever played. The only key to wow is have good gear, Learn the best rotation of skills to do max dps and don't stand in shit. Nothing more. AoW is harder then any boss I've ever fought in wow. Emp Ssra again harder then any boss wow has ever put out. Want make EQ harder then all other mmo's is the strict and harsh penalties of death. Wow you die no big deal i can run back untouched with only needing to spend a little gold to fix my gear. EQ not only do you lose exp that could have taken hours to days to get depending on the level but you also have to run back naked to get your gear or lose everything you have. Again wow is like a down pillow and EQ a brick wall.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Salimon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I played in a 25m heroic that was one of the top guilds on Area 52 server in WOW up until a month ago when i found P99. Wow is not difficult at all it is one of the easiest mmos I've ever played. The only key to wow is have good gear, Learn the best rotation of skills to do max dps and don't stand in shit. Nothing more. AoW is harder then any boss I've ever fought in wow. Emp Ssra again harder then any boss wow has ever put out. Want make EQ harder then all other mmo's is the strict and harsh penalties of death. Wow you die no big deal i can run back untouched with only needing to spend a little gold to fix my gear. EQ not only do you lose exp that could have taken hours to days to get depending on the level but you also have to run back naked to get your gear or lose everything you have. Again wow is like a down pillow and EQ a brick wall.

But that is just it, It DOES NOT MATTER how hard or easy you think WoW is, IT IS STILL HARDER THAN EQ. That is the point I'm getting at, and unless you play very few jobs, like dual wield frost DK, or Hunter, you even push significantly more buttons than EQ. Consider this, if you think WoW is extremely easy, if you have patience, EQ will be a joke for you.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that is just it, It DOES NOT MATTER how hard or easy you think WoW is, IT IS STILL HARDER THAN EQ. That is the point I'm getting at, and unless you play very few jobs, like dual wield frost DK, or Hunter, you even push significantly more buttons than EQ. Consider this, if you think WoW is extremely easy, if you have patience, EQ will be a joke for you.

pound for pound if you turned on EQ for the first time or Wow for the first time, EQ would kick the shit out of you and leave you for dead in a Gotham ally while wow would be like swimming in a soft pond in the moonlight glow among moss covered stones.

[jarlerop]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

pound for pound if you turned on EQ for the first time or Wow for the first time, EQ would kick the shit out of you and leave you for dead in a Gotham ally while wow would be like swimming in a soft pond in the moonlight glow among moss covered stones.

This. So much this.

[Kytross]

What do you mean by hard?

Is it a matter of hitting more or less buttons? Is it a matter of end game or leveling?

I think it comes down to the amount of skill the player needs to have. EQ requires more resource management than WoW for levelling, or rather, it creates a scarcity of resources, on purpose, to force players to work together. WoW gives players an abundance of resources to allow them to solo. EQ requires additional knowledge of other classes, game mechanics as well as a moderate level of cooperation and synergy. You can play to max level of WoW, as any class, without grouping once.

I can't remember a time when anyone used soothe or lull in a group in WoW. We'd have tactics conversations once in awhile, but it was rare. EQ required tactics to get through each encounter. If you don't have a bard or enchanter than I hope you've got some great tactics and synergy because things are going to get hairy!

I think that the lack of a controller class really speaks to the heart of the difference between the two games. In WoW you don't need a controller. In EQ controlling the encounter is essential. I keep looking for a class like the bard in other mmos, but there isn't anything like it anywhere.

And yes, raids are more complicated in modern mmos. As someone said earlier the learning curve is frontloaded in EQ and backloaded in WoW. I can't tell you haw many late game encounters I've seen ruined because half the group didn't know their roles. I think that because WoW is solo focused you the solo problems so many necros, druids, monks and SKs had, the tactics they used in soloing don't work in groups. In modern mmos every class is a solo class.

On the other hand, modern raids require more than just sitting and waiting to do your part. There are puzzles and different kinds of encounters and... I guess this is really where modern mmos built on EQs shoulders, and did a fantastic job.

I like 'quest hubs' and maps that I can access in game. Modern mmos do make some things bettter. But their focus is on solo play, EQ was focused on group play.

I think that's part of why I'm so excited about joining 99. I like grouping. I like being a cog in a greater machine. I like being able to save my group from a wipe, or get off that complete heal at just the right time to turn the tide. I like taking time to work out our approach, and having to change that approach depeding on the make-up of the group.

I once healed for a bunch of mages and a wizard. The pets tanked, the wizard rooted and I had to keep the pets alive. I healed for a group where the aggro was split between two rogues who ping-ponged the aggro between them. I tanked once for a group with three bards and a shaman. I remember thinking the kills were going to take forever, but it turned out to be the fastest killing machine I ever grouped in. These guys had it worked out who was doing what, and I couldn't pull fast enough.

That sort of thing doesn't happen often in modern mmos. Most groups are formed by queue and everyone has an assigned role.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing with you all soon!

[Salimon]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that is just it, It DOES NOT MATTER how hard or easy you think WoW is, IT IS STILL HARDER THAN EQ. That is the point I'm getting at, and unless you play very few jobs, like dual wield frost DK, or Hunter, you even push significantly more buttons than EQ. Consider this, if you think WoW is extremely easy, if you have patience, EQ will be a joke for you.

I completely disagree with this. Let me rephrase my previous comments. Wow is not skill driven it is gear driven nothing more. The best possible rotation is known to everyone it is posted everywhere, They only difference between me and another of the same class is say my Ilvl in wow is 560 and another player is 575 unless he is just completely awful at the game(which he wouldn't be at that level of play) there is absolutely no way i will out dps/heal/tank them. There is no skill involved at all. He will be better then me and i can't do anything about it.

The raids in WOW are a joke. The grouping in wow is a joke it is all a zerg fest. All it is is don't stand in shit. There is no CC they removed pretty much all of it. The only need for CC in the entire last wow expansion was Going from Paragon to Garrosh. just one instance in an entire expansion that required people to work as a team to keep from dieing. There is no heal rotations trying to time it out it is just spam heal and keep people topped off. You don't have to worry about going OOM because the Regen is just stupid. There is no pulling and setting up potions it is just run and and kill everything.

EQ is skill and knowledge driven. Lets just look at monks, bards, and Enc in EQ. The difference between a good one and a bad one is huge regardless of gear. A naked skilled bard monk or enc can outplay anyone no matter the difference in gear. Playing a bard and playing it well is harder then anything wow has to offer. A good monk puller is the difference between a constant steady stream of xp or instant death for everyone. Same with a good enc you can get a ton of mobs and still be fine. But one person doesn't assist right and you can again kill the whole group unless that enc can react and adjust to the broken mezz. Wow doesn't have any of that. All you have to do is run 50 feet away and everything will stop chasing you.

I will say it again wow is hands down the easiest MMO i have ever played.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Salimon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I completely disagree with this. Let me rephrase my previous comments. Wow is not skill driven it is gear driven nothing more. The best possible rotation is known to everyone it is posted everywhere, They only difference between me and another of the same class is say my Ilvl in wow is 560 and another player is 575 unless he is just completely awful at the game(which he wouldn't be at that level of play) there is absolutely no way i will out dps/heal/tank them. There is no skill involved at all. He will be better then me and i can't do anything about it.

The raids in WOW are a joke. The grouping in wow is a joke it is all a zerg fest. All it is is don't stand in shit. There is no CC they removed pretty much all of it. The only need for CC in the entire last wow expansion was Going from Paragon to Garrosh. just one instance in an entire expansion that required people to work as a team to keep from dieing. There is no heal rotations trying to time it out it is just spam heal and keep people topped off. You don't have to worry about going OOM because the Regen is just stupid. There is no pulling and setting up potions it is just run and and kill everything.

EQ is skill and knowledge driven. Lets just look at monks, bards, and Enc in EQ. The difference between a good one and a bad one is huge regardless of gear. A naked skilled bard monk or enc can outplay anyone no matter the difference in gear. Playing a bard and playing it well is harder then anything wow has to offer. A good monk puller is the difference between a constant steady stream of xp or instant death for everyone. Same with a good enc you can get a ton of mobs and still be fine. But one person doesn't assist right and you can again kill the whole group unless that enc can react and adjust to the broken mezz. Wow doesn't have any of that. All you have to do is run 50 feet away and everything will stop chasing you.

I will say it again wow is hands down the easiest MMO i have ever played.

This is 100% bull shit. You just called WoW a Zerg fest? You have obviously never played EQ. Like someone else has pointed out, and myself has also, there is certain aspects in EQ that could be assumed harder, but it is mostly revolved around leveling, that is it (your examples are even revolved around lvling, and playing a bard you still aren't pushing a many buttons as jobs in wow). If you try to just "Zerg" content in WoW (which you can't since content is limited at 25 people, which in itself proves you don't know what you are saying), you fail. The overall skill level though of WoW is much higher, all aspects taken in, to actually do the content that is rewarding.

[SCB]

Originally Posted by Salimon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

AoW is harder then any boss I've ever fought in wow. Emp Ssra again harder then any boss wow has ever put out. Want make EQ harder then all other mmo's is the strict and harsh penalties of death. Wow you die no big deal i can run back untouched with only needing to spend a little gold to fix my gear.

lol.

AoW is literally release 40-man Patchwerk. They are the same exact encounter with a different skin. Ssra is slightly harder, but nowhere near anything like Firefighter, much less Sunwell.

Dying is a problem in EQ from approximately level 8 to level 51. 99% of clerics on this server have an epic, and a clicky rez is usually no more than a friendly tell away, even sub-50, because many people have clerics parked in their zone in case their group dies.


Back on topic: I'm all about classic feel, and not classic mechanics. If I had the option, I'd have all mechanics set to end-of-velious levels from launch. EXP penalties were a mistake, per the devs. We don't worship mistakes - we fix them. Same for all the other crap they fixed. Yeah we get no rubicite or guises, but so what - have some GM events and hand 'em out in limited quantities.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by SCB [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol.

AoW is literally release 40-man Patchwerk. They are the same exact encounter with a different skin. Ssra is slightly harder, but nowhere near anything like Firefighter, much less Sunwell.

Dying is a problem in EQ from approximately level 8 to level 51. 99% of clerics on this server have an epic, and a clicky rez is usually no more than a friendly tell away, even sub-50, because many people have clerics parked in their zone in case their group dies.


Back on topic: I'm all about classic feel, and not classic mechanics. If I had the option, I'd have all mechanics set to end-of-velious levels from launch. EXP penalties were a mistake, per the devs. We don't worship mistakes - we fix them. Same for all the other crap they fixed. Yeah we get no rubicite or guises, but so what - have some GM events and hand 'em out in limited quantities.

Really? You've been here for 4 years and you say that? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Worship ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship ) is exactly what's happening amongst the noisiest part of the community here. The staff appears to have a different agenda, and a lot of us players are just here for the fun of it, but the :classic: nerds make it plain every day that they are 100% in worship mode. And they especially advocate for and worship the stupidest of the choices our Verantard overlords made back in the day.

[Glenzig]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Really? You've been here for 4 years and you say that? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Worship ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship ) is exactly what's happening amongst the noisiest part of the community here. The staff appears to have a different agenda, and a lot of us players are just here for the fun of it, but the :classic: nerds make it plain every day that they are 100% in worship mode. And they especially advocate for and worship the stupidest of the choices our Verantard overlords made back in the day.

BLASPHEMY!!!! HE'S A WITCH!!! BURN HIM!!! BURN HIIIIIIIIMMMM!!!!!!!