The troubles with modern MMO's...

[pogs4ever]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So the game sucked cause zones were not blunt square boxes with no land features what so ever like West Karana?

actually, the Karanas are one of the reasons I love EQ so much; while people who actually enjoy those zones is a minority. It makes the world seem realistic and vast in that it should mostly be empty space; and the first trip across antonica is one that most of us remember. It made finding the ogre shaman camp actually feel like you found something and want to tell your friends, and go check out. Theme park style of new mmo's killed this feeling for me.

other than that, risk/reward/thinking outside the box/rate of progress is why i like eq>everything else.

also, i loved playing original EQ when like everlore was the place to get info, and it was half false (i really used to believe in the lake rathe monster) and therefore you had to just figure it out yourself, nowadays there is a guide for everything.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Originally Posted by pogs4ever [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

actually, the Karanas are one of the reasons I love EQ so much; while people who actually enjoy those zones is a minority. It makes the world seem realistic and vast in that it should mostly be empty space; and the first trip across antonica is one that most of us remember

my fondest memory of classic was running my troll SK (first and only toon) to south karana. wading through the swamp, trudging through feerrott jungle, climbing over rathe mountains, swimming through lake rathe, and bolting across the plains to arrive at a gigantic tree house filled with human-sized birdmen.

fucking beautiful.

[tanknspank]

Originally Posted by Byrjun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more.

I love things being this recognizable. And that there's not an overwhelming number of them so you can actually know most items. It makes them stand out more than if there's 10 similar variations of gear for X class/slot.

Early WoW had this in some limited fashion. There's some weapons/shields and a few armor pieces that stood out and those were awesome, but a lot of the rest was very forgettable. And I'm not just talking about random greens. So many blues, or even purples, look the same as those random greens, or have differences small enough that they don't stand out.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except all of these used EXACTLY the same texture only in different color.

Limited texture area was a limitation of 1999. When EQ was developed they had to be very restricted in how much texture they used for global things (like PC gear/models/pets) as these had to be loaded in all zones. WoW came about 5.5 years later which (especially at that time) meant massive improvements in both software techniques and hardware.

I'm not saying EQ shouldn't have more textures, particularly as expansions go on, but if they are sparingly used and with unique colors, that would help items stay recognizable.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WoW by contrast had dozens of different of textures right of the start, which is now up to a hundred. WoW does use different approach - the texture looks the same for all races, rather than race specific like in EQ, but at the same time total number of textures far greater.

Same goes for famous weapons - they were only famous when there were too few of them.

I think WoW wasted too many texures/models on greens and at the same time had too many generic blue+ items. With fewer blue+ items and making the greens look the same and more bland it would have made the blue+ items more recognizable.

I feel fewer, more famous items makes for more interesting itemization than a wide variety of forgettable ones. I remember replacing my combine weapon with a SSoY on my warrior, or later getting a Primal then a BoC on my warrior. I remember progressing from Gossamer Robe to FBR to Oracle to Cryosilk on my wizard. I remember my epics, and Shissar bane, my first FBSS, GEBs, brown chitin protector, my Ifir, and a dozen other memorable gear changes.

I played a lot of WoW. In fact I've played WoW for more years (and more /played hours) than I did EQ. And yet I have far fewer memories of the gear I've used there, most of it blending into a forgettable stream of slight upgrades.

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem).

This has been my main problem with WoW and pretty much every MMO since. EQ had the freedom to be unexpected. The lack of instancing means everyone else indirectly adds change to your play session. What camps are open, what your group comp will be, etc. The camp model in a way makes each camp be its own mini dungeon with its own quirks, dangers, items. In Guk alone I could play 6 nights in a row and be in a different camp. Then there's Unrest and HHP, just off the top of my head.

In WoW at a given level range I was always on one of 2-3 paths and repeatedly doing the same 2-3 dungeons that consisted of the same rooms, in the same order, with the same bosses that we fought exactly once per run. And because questing was so superior to grinding mobs it was always more beneficial to follow the tracks than just roam, exploring and finding interesting little camps to do. Everything was always ordered too. There was no braving the dangers of a trip from FP to Lake Rathe for the Gnoll camp, or to Unrest across DC.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as WoW solo everything - that was the designers original intent - game supports all modes - solo, group and raid.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I do think all play modes should be viable. The problem was that unless you did dungeons, grouping was counterproductive.

All the limitations it set (quest level, quest sequence, no quest items dropping unless you are on the quest) added a lot of overhead to playing with others outside dungeons to the point that you were better off soloing. If you ran into someone, odds were you were on different stages of the quest chain and one of you had to help the other catch up if you wanted to meaningfully group. If your partner had to AFK for a bit you couldn't just keep loot a few extra quest items and hand them to them when they got back. If your partner was 1 level lower you could end up getting a quest they couldn't yet.

I do think an ideal MMO supports all playstyles, but the rewards from raids/group should be commensurate with the overhead in people wrangling they take. For raids this is never an issue because they typically take place at max level (xp being meaningless) and are typically the source of BiS gear. Grouping however is an activity that needs to happen side-by-side with soloing both at max level and on the way there. And you can't just say "ok, grouping will give good gear, soloing will give good XP" because then both styles of players will feel forced into having to do the thing they don't favor (due to time, likes or whatever).

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you should go to zone X next cause it suits your level range is fine, cause otherwise players will do what they do in EQ - they go to alla or to the forums and start asking where is the best place to XP at lev X. Same crap.

More info like that is fine. EQ however has self-correcting mechanisms for that - lack of instancing / relatively slow respawn / group composition. Zone X might be the best XP in a level range, but if it's over-camped you'll actually get better XP in a non-best zone with plentiful mobs to kill. Or that best XP might require having CC or harmony, and your group doesn't so you find a place that yields better XP due to less risk/problems in handling the camp with the classes you have.

Originally Posted by indiscriminate_hater [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

my fondest memory of classic was running my troll SK (first and only toon) to south karana. wading through the swamp, trudging through feerrott jungle, climbing over rathe mountains, swimming through lake rathe, and bolting across the plains to arrive at a gigantic tree house filled with human-sized birdmen.

fucking beautiful.

I have a couple like that. The first time I was ~5 in ECom (which was super-crowded as it was a new server) and one of our group members led us to Misty Thicket. Another one was (a different character/server) a group member telling us about the gnolls in Lake Rathe and us undertaking the journey there for the loots (staff and skull!) and uncrowded XP. Then from there we eventually moved on to KFC as well.

[Whirled]

I know some people that play vanilla WoW also. They constantly try to get me to play & I'm trying to tell them I barely have time to log into this game. Some games lose their luster quickly while others just leave that nugget of fun in the back of your heart/mind where u want the next quest step, that next level...another pixel...

[August]

Well, rambling responses inc:

1) Death penalty. The death penalty in EQ sucks. It's such a harsh penalty that the actual cause of the penalty needed to be rare. This meant that encounters had to be approached with a lot more caution - and that they couldn't be *too* hard. For progressive raiding, this is a bit of a problem. I probably wiped 250+ times to Ragnaros before our guild got him down. If that had been EQ, Ragnaros would have had to have been much less difficult - you can't CR that many times when you have to rez. And in reality, it's just a substitute - step. If you're raiding in EQ, you probably have the zone cleared. You probably have clerics nearby with click sticks. The reality is that it's just extra time you have to take to try again. Rezzing with a penalty (which is also a money siphon - brilliant) with your gear makes the game let you spend more time in enjoyable activities (actually playing) than sitting around. Unpopular opinion of mine for sure - don't get me wrong - I LOVE the death penalty in most aspects of classic EQ, but it just doesn't really fly with progressive raiding (at least in classic era when only one class had rez).

2) Itemization. WoW had way more itemization than EQ did, and had more textures than EQ did. You all just know all the items in classic EQ because there's *so few of them*. Concerning unique graphics - in vanilla wow I can think of a TON of items that had their own special graphic.

3) Class homogenization - probably my biggest pet peeve. They did this so you don't have to spend more time 'leveling' replicate characters as well as keeping you more interested in the focus of the game: The end game. EQ to me was about the journey up. WoW was about what you did once you got there. To that end...

4) Leveling - Dungeon Finder facilitated getting to the end game quicker - period. In a game where leveilng isn't important, are we that surprised that they made it even easier / anonymous.

5) Instancing - Face it guys, EQ would have been instance if made today. You can only put so much static content mobs into a world for a given population. We already see this in p1999 - rotations, forced respawns, this is all because we don't have instancing. No instances is great for the 'i want everything and nobody else should get it' attitude, but if you want to appeal to a common userbase, you need to make the content you spend millions developing available to anyone. There's nothing wrong with a few static mobs (like they did in Vanilla WoW) - but the world has to be a LOT bigger, or there has to be limited population, to do away with instances all together.

6) Auction house / Bazaar - Again, it's all about instancing. When resources are very plentiful and you have a huge economy with 50k+ on a server, shouting in a zone just doesn't work. I love the charm of a tunnel, but in any modern MMO with large playerbases, it's not going to cut it.


I know I used WoW a lot, but that's the game that ultimately pulled me away from EQLive. I was in PoT when FoH left Veeshan for good. I was the recipient of a LOT of stuff from people leaving as they 'were never coming back'. A lot of the things that EQ had trouble with, WoW corrected up front. It was a very good game originally - no class homogenization, dungeons were not in a dungeon finder, gear was well stratified and there were plenty of 'epic' quests that rewarded unique loot (including your class-sets 0.5, 1, 2, 3). Hell, it wasn't even really outlined how to get to max level at first (I grinded 52-60 in felstone field, what what).

[Swish]

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[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Yeah that's what I'm taklin about. They don't want people like me. I even got banned from mmorpg doh com (years ago) for kindly explaining what a scam most of it is now (they get ad revenue from f2p's obviously). But I don't usually mention it so much any longer, I mean if you are that stupid (not directed at you) than you prolly deserve it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
hmm linky... http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Ramin...ion_Tricks.php

[Ifaerl]

One of the things I hate the most about modern MMO's is generally the community.

I feel this is the result of how quick and easy it is to level a new toon, the ability to rename your characters, and the ability to transfer servers. There is no motivation for people to treat other players with respect. Everybody turns into a bad troll, robs guild banks, etc. because they know that whatever they do has no way to stick to them. When you put time into your character on a game like classic EQ, you are also building your reputation. People remember when you treat them nicely and with respect.

[Whirled]

Originally Posted by Ifaerl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the things I hate the most about modern MMO's is generally the community........... People remember when you treat them nicely and with respect.

[Lagaidh]

I enjoyed Burning Crusade and a majority of Lich King, but as said upthread, attitudes really changed with the instance tools. I was still in a guild for raiding. I don't know if there was or became a way to do pick up raids with a UI tool as there was for dungeon instances.

I did pop back in for Cataclysm, but my class had been changed and played like other classes I didn't care to play. At that point, I found this.