GM Available for Discussion on What are actually considered camps?

[Ikonoclastia]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately this game sort of reflects real life. There is some really nice people you meet and some people that are not the nicest people you ever met.

I think there are sort of more people that play P1999 in some of the top Guilds that fit in the latter.

The reverse asshole filter. Never met so many drama queens, losers and asshats then when I joined the raiding scene on live.

People who are decent and want to "play" the game drop from guild because of the shit atmosphere while people who loot whore, spend 30+ hours a week at "the job" stay until the guild is made up primarily of the assholes.

And then of course you have the inevitable RMT, bank thefts, training, etc etc that comes from having guilds full of ftards.

Yes I'm bitter.

Played EvE Online for 10 years and same thing happens in corps n alliances so it's an mmo game design problem I guess.

[Tasslehofp99]

Originally Posted by Ikonoclastia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reverse asshole filter. Never met so many drama queens, losers and asshats then when I joined the raiding scene on live.

People who are decent and want to "play" the game drop from guild because of the shit atmosphere while people who loot whore, spend 30+ hours a week at "the job" stay until the guild is made up primarily of the assholes.

And then of course you have the inevitable RMT, bank thefts, training, etc etc that comes from having guilds full of ftards.

Yes I'm bitter.

Played EvE Online for 10 years and same thing happens in corps n alliances so it's an mmo game design problem I guess.

Its just the human element to these games.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its just the human element to these games.

Yes. There is no way to design away people being assholes without removing all the meaningful interaction from games (i.e. every modern MMO in existence now).

If you want gameplay freedom, it will always include the ability to be an asshole. Kind of like life.

[tanknspank]

Originally Posted by Ikonoclastia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reverse asshole filter.

The players who take the game the most seriously are the ones who will be the most successful in terms of top content. Since they take the game seriously they're the ones most likely to value pixels>people or get worked up over pixels issues.

Which EVE power block were you aligned with? Former TEST then N3 player here.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes. There is no way to design away people being assholes without removing all the meaningful interaction from games (i.e. every modern MMO in existence now).

If you want gameplay freedom, it will always include the ability to be an asshole. Kind of like life.

I don't know just how much I agree with this. Certainly, there are always going to be assholes, but the problem that occurs is the centralization of assholes in endgame due to the job-like nature of it.

End game in most MMOs are fairly similar, but EverQuest did the build up levels in a very different way by early design, and it creates what, in my opinion was, the best structure to date in a MMO for creating some decency and putting consequences on assholish behavior.

Assholes exist in real life, there is certainly that element, but it happens significantly more when people are able to act independently of one another, and not rely upon one another for means of survival or for means of attaining goals. So long as people actively view that they need others, assholish behavior which removes their potential to gain the help of others, puts them at a significant disadvantage, and is discouraged.

This is what I loved about much of the early and build up to EverQuest... Before you have a guild, before you have a raiding organization or whatever you wish to look at it as, each person is in a game world where death has major consequence, where travel is difficult, where each person needs others to really make their way through this game with any relative ease. The game servers were each, individually, small enough, and leveling was arduous enough that your name had attached to it a certain reputation. Being an asshole gave you a reputation, and you could start to feel the negative consequences of that behavior through reduces ports, reduced rezzes, and the like. This made the game ultimately harder.

What removes this is when you do what WoW has done and you instance off everything, and let people random queue into whatever you want. Or when you do what EQ did and let NPCs replace the function of people, allowing each player to act independent of the rest of the player base. Or, what simply happens as an EQ world gets older, people join up into raiding guilds and groups, and can be assholes to those not in that group because each guild is a self-contained organization that can provide for every aspect of what the player requires, freeing them up to terrorize or be assholes to the rest of the player base.

Most games, you get assholes from the start. EverQuest at least pushed it off until you were looking at raiding and the endgame. I'd like to believe that there is a way to structure a game which takes advantage of this player interdependence all the way to endgame, rather than it ending when you look at raiding. It may come with the cost of there being no raiding, or being another type of endgame content.

But like I said at the start, I don't know how much I agree or disagree with the idea that it is inevitable. If it is possible to keep reputation costs mattering at high level, then I think it will be possible. However, if there is no way to keep one's reputation mattering at higher level, then it probably is inevitable. Classic EQ had the advantage of a very short timeline relative to Project 1999, so we have significantly more clustering and xenophobia created between guilds as they cluster and build up, ultimately leading to the type of negative and crappy behavior that we see as rampant. I don't have an answer in mind as to how to keep reputation as important, or rather how to keep players relying upon each other, when they are able to join together into guilds and become self-contained units. And I definitely don't have an answer as to how to do it for as long as it would be needed here. Hence, I am not sure how much I agree or disagree yet.

[fastboy21]

its inevitable.

the freedom that makes EQ great is what allows folks to be jerks. its what allows folks to be genuinely "good" to each other as well. this is why i really like EQ. take the freedom away from the players to be good or bad to one another and you wind up with a cookie-cutter bland mmo (like the ones we've been playing for the last dozen years).

muscling someone out of a camp (or into respecting one) by being a jerk isn't against the rules. at least, in and of itself, it isn't against the rules. training, KSing, etc would be (go play on red) against them. its classic. if there weren't folks /ooc'ing about trains and KSs it wouldn't be real EQ.

I.E. Being a jerk is allowed in EQ...it can suck, but its a dimension of EQ that makes it more real---and ironically, enhances the quality of relationships you can form with your actual friends in game.

[Cecily]

Fantastic post, Uteunayr. I've always felt that reputation being largely meaningless here was unfortunate, and I agree it does boil down to the isolated guild communities. When you're only concerned with the welfare of your group, "because we can" tends to guide action.

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It ruins my immersion to see yellow text followed by 20 people saying PRAS in non-classic global OOC.

This made me lol pretty hard. Because even though I spend very little time on red and haven't seen this, briefly sifting through the PvP forums makes it completely believable.

[Lagaidh]

Originally Posted by Ambrotos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If it moves in a open zone it's a fair game and not a camp.

Which frustrated many a Quillmane drama. It's there for every one of my alts to enjoy as they go through the 20s.

[Millburn]

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which EVE power block were you aligned with? Former TEST then N3 player here.

This sounds like Martyr's Vengeance, did you join S2N or a different alliance in N3?