Classic mechanic discussion: fast weapon/white damage aggro

[Borador]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).

and there is no offhand damage bonus, the hate generation was extremely high in the OFFhand with faster weapons not just the main (aka its not just damage done). What you are posting is why twig did so much damage (and obviously hate generation) as a main hand abusing the DMG bonus..

[koros]

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and there is no offhand damage bonus, the hate generation was extremely high in the OFFhand with faster weapons not just the main (aka its not just damage done). What you are posting is why twig did so much damage (and obviously hate generation) as a main hand abusing the DMG bonus..

No he was right, that's in regards to hate generation. It actually didn't do that much damage in mainhand (Just slightly more than an epic or jade mace)

[Borador]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No he was right, that's in regards to hate generation. It actually didn't do that much damage in mainhand (Just slightly more than an epic or jade mace)

right about what? He simply showed the dps of the weapons. Obviously that is a factor in hate generation. But, a main reason the twig was busted was because of its hate generation from the low delay. This was shown when it was nerfed to offhand only yet still generated a lot of hate. The only reason they didn't remove it retroactively is it wasn't also providing massive DPS.

As far as its damage. I wouldn't call nearly 40% increase on the epic from a level 20 something mob "slight".

[koros]

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

right about what? He simply showed the dps of the weapons. Obviously that is a factor in hate generation. But, a main reason the twig was busted was because of its hate generation from the low delay. This was shown when it was nerfed to offhand only yet still generated a lot of hate. The only reason they didn't remove it retroactively is it wasn't also providing massive DPS.

As far as its damage. I wouldn't call nearly 40% increase on the epic from a level 20 something mob "slight".

The formula for hate generation is more along the lines of ((weapon damage + damage bonus)/delay). That's what he was saying.

The difference in DAMAGE vs epic at level 60 is ~4.5%, (((weapon damage x 2) + damage bonus)/delay) but that's also about the same damage a jade mace does. It's good, but it's not even close to 40%

[crkhobbit]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).

This makes perfect sense to me.

I remember faster weapons being better aggro from live as well. I don't think we understood why back then, but we knew that dual wielding fast weapons worked the best.

As for using a faster weapon over a proc weapon, my guess would be consistency. Especially in an XP group. Procs aren't guaranteed.

[Nirgon]

Agreed with Ambrotos.

Rolled eyes @ splorf.

[pasi]

Rather than type up a long post as usual:

Hate per swing = damage + (damage bonus * hate mod)

Some reading if you care

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...ead.php?t=3789

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38

[pasi]

My belief (after discussion with Kringe in team speak) is that every single landed hit from a weapon, in addition to the damage it did, had a base amount of hate for a scored hit.

Swings are as much hate as misses. It doesn't matter if you miss, get parried, hit for full, hit for the lowest DI, crit, etc. It's all the same hate.

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.

I'm too tired to dig it up, but I posted a link a while back showing what casted stuns did threat wise relative to mob HP.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Swings are as much hate as misses. It doesn't matter if you miss, get parried, hit for full, hit for the lowest DI, crit, etc. It's all the same hate.

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.

I'm too tired to dig it up, but I posted a link a while back showing what casted stuns did threat wise relative to mob HP.

Correct. I posted some links about this in the warrior epic thread.

Remember, the warrior epic originally had a debuff proc instead of a +hate proc. That's why we still have a residual spell gem. At the time debuff procs were functions of the mobs max HP -- which made them rather shitty during kunark, and very over powered in velious. There was a hate generation revamp that I believe changed the warrior epic and put a max on the debuff hate generation.

This is why enchanters and whatnot would get insta-gibbed debuffing basically anthing in velious.

I don't think it's a matter of hate per swing working incorrectly, I just think the hate generation on some procs is higher than it should be AND we have a huge pool of super twinked toons.

[Zeelot]

Check out my old bug report regarding this, unfortunately nothing has been changed, maybe got lost in the shuffle. Pretty sure this is how it's supposed to be - http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=39361