1)
The agreement must be iron-clad or TMO will rules-lawyer it into uselessness. Remember when TMO planted mage pets on Noble when everyone agreed to "not have any person on 1.5 for Noble spawn". TMO was within the "rules", but way outside the "intent" of the rules. This agreement has holes larger than the grand canyon in it, and making it more complex won't help.
KISS.
2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derubael
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Just something to consider when talking about a points system...
What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?
How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?
Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?
Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durka
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One thing about the point / bag system that needs to be considered (just because my tinfoil hat started making funny sounds)
Guilds may take their 2nd, 3rd and 4th alts and make diff guilds to take advantage of this system. Not that everyone will do it right away, but it sure would evolve that way.
/tinfoil hat off
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Yinik has a delay to join the points, and I added a post on dissuading diffusion of raid guilds here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by falkun
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I like the concept!
As for adjusting the points-per-guild or wondering what would happen when a new guild enters, use a formula:
(c*M)/G=P
c: some constant percentage, which controls the amount of farming a guild can do over "their fair share."
M: total number of raid mob points per time period (700 is the number floating around this thread)
G: number of raid guilds receiving points.
P: The number of raid points each guild receives.
I would also simplify the points. Currently you have two tiers, 50 and 25 points. Simplify and set one tier to "2" and the other tier to "1". This makes the rest of the equation simpler and you'll have fewer remainder points in P. For instance you'd get 7.63 raid points (P) allowing you to kill 7 one-point mobs instead of 146 raid points which really only allows you to kill 125 raid points worth of mobs. Or you could account for this by adjusting the constant, c, depending on the number of raid guilds.
Also, this formula would deter guilds from fracturing into micro-guilds.
Finally, this does little to address PetitionQuesting. It will reduce petitions in those less desirable races, but when TMO, FE, IB, and BDA decide they all want to spend points on that one PD, VS, or Trak, Rogean & Co. are gonna have a bad day. Or if too many points remain (because too many extra have been handed out), then some guilds might decide to go after that last Sev before midnight on the last of the month because, "otherwise the points are wasted." I don't have much to offer on that point, but I'll continue to think about it.
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3)
Emphasis mine
Quote:
Originally Posted by baramur
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Seems like alot are not grasping this, by the way i read their comments.
Its says for 3 weeks tmo/ib/fe will not engage inny, sev, maestro, gore, tal. This opens up around 23 mobs they will no longer engage at all. Then 1 week a month they will not engage ct, trak, vs. This is a huve concession of mobs, also there is nothing that says you cant challenge the A guilds, it just says the A guilds cannot challenge you.
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Except they have not made that guarantee AT ALL. FE and TMO have said they will not go after them if they don't need them. Following Alarti's posts, TMO (at least) still needs every raid mob in the game, that's why they've killed 200 Traks and 80+% of the raid content for the last two years. See the OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella`Ella
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It is important to note that FE, IB and TMO will not necessarily be actively tracking these deprioritized mobs during this time, as we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item (e.g. we have a warrior holding a green scale that needs a maestro hand)
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The OP does not state that TMO nor FE will not go after these targets, they merely state they
may go after them during the 1-week "hands-off" period, not that they will not go after them for the other 3 weeks. A points system will allow guilds to go after "epic targets" they wouldn't normally need, they'd just have to trade other targets. With this system, they give up nothing to go after epic mobs.
4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella`Ella
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DA Stalling Tactics:
Any stalling tactic such as Divine Barrier or Aura, Harmshield, monk whirlwind or avoidance discs or DA Idol is considered 1 unit of stall. No guild shall employ more than 2 units of stalling during any raid target encounter (36 seconds). If said guild employs a stall tactic and fails to engage the encounter after that time period has concluded, they will forfeit any attempt to engage that target during this spawn period and retreat from the encounter.
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No mention of bard DA. Also, its entirely shit. There shouldn't be ANY DA stall tanking, let alone two. Not that I'm advocating Motec's idea for "banish any aggro after 20sec", especially with the long pulls like Sev, Fay, Tal and possibly Gore, but DA stalling is a crap mechanic.
5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella`Ella
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Repop Days
During a repop, the Category A and B restrictions will not apply, however TMO, FE, and IB have agreed that they will not pursue non-priority targets during a repop.
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Congratulations guilds shitting at the top of the raid scene, you have VP keys by training, rules-lawyering, and outright killing a mob at 3AM for the last two years. Your prize: VP. Server repops (should, if they don't already) also repop VP, and force VP guilds to kill in their little playground before stepping outside. Also, enjoy the new VP has CSR rule.
6)
On the VP note...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella`Ella
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If a category B guild kills 40% or more of targets in any given month during our “hands off” period (explained below), they will be promoted to Category A and be subject to the respective restrictions.
VP Dragons are excluded from percentage calculations.
Any guild that is VP capable (Kills a dragon in VP) will be considered Category A for 90 days.
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So if a guild breaks into hardcore (kills a VP dragon) and decides to be nice and only kill in VP, they are penalized (drop back down to casual) because they are nice to the casuals and do not engage outside VP? Also, Why is hurting casuals (killing more than 40% of the non-VP mobs) a less-severe punishment (30days of "hardcore") than the punishment for killing a single "hardcore only" mob in VP, which is 90days of "hardcore" status? Disingenuous.
7)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus
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It's fair to bring up that many deals leave VP out of the uncontested time frames. For the most part, it's a moot point as few guilds have the keys to slay a dragon that are not already hard core. VP can perhaps be fairly addressed through any number of ways such as altering the 75/25 split to something like 70/30 or 67/33, or just making PD the only "non-hands off dragon."
For the time being, it's relatively minor and easily addressed. My major contention is the lack of consideration for each side's viewpoint. The hardcores should be rewarded just as the casuals should be respected.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus
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A 75/25 split respects casuals and affords them a meaningful chance to participate in the end game, and it respects the dedication and effort of the hardcore.
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75/25 might be workable if you include VP. VP is 6 targets out of 19, about 1/3 of the raid pie, and only accessible to few. VP is your reward, stop treating it like its not a gigantic slice of the pie. The raid points system includes VP as part of the pie.
8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella`Ella
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No poop socking agreement:
No guild will have more than 2 members present at any given time during period of time where either Venril Sathir or Trakanon are in window. Specifically those tracking for VS will not be in the room. This will apply to all mobs.
Naturally, there are times that will exist where it is necessary to have more than 2 trackers in the zone for an encounter. There are, however, instances where more than 2 characters from any guilds will need to be in zone. If a guild is CoTHing members down or buffing they may do so, and they may med to full. Upon reaching full mana or completing a CoTH the surplus members must log off and not maintain a presence.
There will no longer be grouping in the VS pit to circumvent the 2-player no-sock rule. This is easy to justify as it’s a terrible spot for exp and has relatively no value for any player to be here if they aren’t looking to manipulate this rule.
In addition, guilds are able to engage Prot and Tola within a reasonable amount of time and may not malinger in the zone after the mobs have been killed.
With the agreement to remove socking as a tactic, we request that GMs significantly reduce variance, as it only serves as a detriment to everyone at this point.
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You haven't solved poopsocking at all, you've just pushed people onto alts. The characters are still there, holding onto buff timers with a crapton of "gray area" for rules-lawyering like, "All 45 of us were just buffing for the last 4 hours. We are practicing dueling each other, rezzing back, and buff and med back up and do it again."
9)
This is not expandable to Velious AT ALL. What, you make VP (minus PD) and Kunark "de-prioritized"? That still leaves 100% of Velious as a clusterfuck for 80+% of the server. Renegotiating this short-sighted agreement in a few months (hopefully) when Velious is released or in late-stage beta (because I'm hoping we're that proactive) will be a nightmare. I personally advocate pouring a foundation now that will be more easily built upon when the raid content triples with Velious. Having to start from scratch again is extremely shortsighted when it took an act of Rogean to get TMO to come to the negotiating table in the first place.
10)
Also, raid infractions until this point have been a joke. It takes no more CSR involvement to say, "You done fucked up, take a month off," than it does to say, "You done fucked up, take a week off." Institute a 3-strike system if you are worried about over-penalization, but this slap on the wrist stuff doesn't deter anti-PNP behavior. You drop a few heavy handed punishments (like this current one), and people clean their shit up, real quick. Heck, you could even use this "hardcore vs. casual" system against casual guilds, "Casual_guild_A, you trained Casual_Guild_B today, you are "hardcore" status for a month, have fun training now." And if they still try their shit with hardcore guilds, hardcore guilds are used to it, document it better, and you can levy hardcore punishments against them.
12-31-2013, 10:47 AM
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