Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[Ripqozko]

I feel bad for kittens having to deal with DSM on the daily

[Troxx]

lol so we have gone from:

-JBB is the undeniably faster and the math irrefutably proves it!

To …

-JBB is 180 seconds and I’ll ignore I’m still missing 300hp and dot is 188 seconds

To …

-they’re both 188 seconds!


———————
———————————

I’m so proud of you DSM. You are showing an extraordinary amount of personal growth.

Keep it up!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol so we have gone from:

-JBB is the undeniably faster and the math irrefutably proves it!

To …

-JBB is 180 seconds and I’ll ignore I’m still missing 300hp and dot is 188 seconds

To …

-they’re both 188 seconds!


———————
———————————

I’m so proud of you DSM. You are showing an extraordinary amount of personal growth.

Keep it up!

You clearly didn't read my last post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=465 - I made a minor adjustment by adding a single root into the equation to reduce the damage taken to 150, which is easily recoverable while pulling. You cannot claim that Shamans should not be at 100% HP while also claiming they must sit and recover to 100% HP before you get Torpor. I personally never needed to use root while in rat maze to fully recover between pulls. You are also ignoring all the factors that slow down the DoTing Shaman to make them look better.

Unlike yourself I have always been able to adjust to the data. Will you actually have some personal growth and admit you were wrong, instead of continue to troll? In the end you were still wrong. JBB even in an Ogre's hands is still better for leveling from 45-60 when taking into account spell resists, root breaks, damage taken from root breaks, etc. For yourself who has a troll, JBB would be even faster than DoTing. Your claim that it is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is still false. You have yet to prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

for example, I pointed out that you forgot to take into account around 6300 mana from meditating for the root rot approach

You did point out a flaw in my math, and I appreciate that! I also admitted I was wrong there, contrary to the strawman claiming I never do so. But you tend to ignore when I do the same thing to your math. The fact that you are often using averages incorrectly is something you tend to do, but don't want to admit for some reason. If this was a fair exchange, you would also improve yourself. This is why I say your math isn't that impressive. You are making mistakes too, and you are refusing to admit them. Combined with your insistence that you seem to be better at math than others, it comes off very arrogant.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would you prefer I cease my attempts at constructive engagement?

I would prefer if you were consistent. Ignoring all other posters and focusing on me tends to support the trolls who are doing the same thing, which isn't helping these forums or the discussion. If Troxx has a flaw in their math, then point it out so it doesn't look so one sided. He factually had flaws in his math too, which were ignored by yourself. In the end Troxx was still wrong, but you didn't help him at all in showing him why he is wrong.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am perfectly fine with you using any math terminology you want. Claiming that I don't like math terminology is just silly, and sounds like an insult.

Fair enough, it does sound a bit like an insult. I'm just responding to what you said previously:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Third, his math is not actually impressive, as he makes mistakes often. His tactic is to use math terms that most people don't know in an attempt to impress.

I took that as insulting, and responded in kind. But I do try my best to avoid personal insults, so I apologize for the passive-aggressive phrasing.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

You're right, I do almost exclusively respond to you on this forum. That's for a couple of reasons. First, you're one of the very few people to provide mathematical reasoning, and as I really really like math, I sometimes get excited about the opportunity to apply math to a video game I quite enjoy. Second, I find your math to frequently contain mistakes, and my inner pedant feels compelled to supply corrections. Third, I suspect that you frequently work backwards from conclusion to reasoning; for example, I pointed out that you forgot to take into account around 6300 mana from meditating for the root rot approach, which changes the conclusion from 11781 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 (JBB) to 18081 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 (JBB). Instead of accepting that conclusion, you changed the scenarios in order to continue showing the JBB strategy as better. That really bugs me.

But if you ever come across someone using mathematics and you'd like me to provide a close reasoning to confirm accuracy, I'm always willing to do so. Just shoot me a DM.

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

Cheers mate!

But, he's right; I've earned his distrust. It's true that I almost solely respond to him, almost always disputing something he said, and I have indeed at times been snide, churlish, insinuating, even acrimonious, disputatious, impudent, peevish, truculent, and certainly unrelenting. But hopefully not too often sanctimonious or disparaging.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At least you have the courtesy to always act like a troll though!

Would you prefer I cease my attempts at constructive engagement?

Regardless of how you may feel about me, I decided to go ahead and do the math of the actual expected DPS of the Scourge proc, and it came out lower than I expected - 0.75 DPS. I can provide the calculations if you wish - it's a little hairy, so the skeptical eye of someone with some mathematical facility would be quite welcome.

[Duik]

At this point the water is so muddy only an axolotl can see the answer. So iksar wins.
Fuck im good.

[Duik]

Lmfao.
Discretely Shifting Messages quite a few times I see. I didnt notice you (did it) until troxx mentioned it 76 pages back.
Just cursory glances i noticed edits at 12:10pm and 12:12pm Aussie Eastern Daylight Savings Time. (Shared with Vladivostok and Guam of all places) .
Maybe use the time you edit to read and re read ya posts to not look so befuddled? I dunno. Also editing posts is fine but you do infact do it EVERY FUCKING TIME.
Are you ok? Like really?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lmfao.
Discretely Shifting Messages quite a few times I see. I didnt notice you (did it) until troxx mentioned it 76 pages back.
Just cursory glances i noticed edits at 12:10pm and 12:12pm Aussie Eastern Daylight Savings Time. (Shared with Vladivostok and Guam of all places) .
Maybe use the time you edit to read and re read ya posts to not look so befuddled? I dunno. Also editing posts is fine but you do infact do it EVERY FUCKING TIME.
Are you ok? Like really?

If trolls stopped trolling and lying about what I've said in the past, I wouldn't need to edit my posts.

Stop the trolling, and I will stop the editing!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One more nail in the coffin.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of [chloroblast].

You are ready to go and can toss a chloroblast on your pet to have the pet “broken even” on health.

Adjusting the calculations to take into account using 1x Chloroblast on the pet every time:

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 175 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter the damage above

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 838
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 838 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained with only 150 damage taken from cannibalize.

188 Seconds per encounter, Shaman is down 148 HP and 20 mana by using Canni 3 2x to make up for the 96 mana not covered by the HP gained. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

[bcbrown]

Could you update the Scourge proc to 0.75 DPS? I can provide calculations if you'd like.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Could you update the Scourge proc to 0.75 DPS? I can provide calculations if you'd like.

Regardless of whether your calculation is correct, we can take a look. 51.55 DPS instead of 53 DPS would add 4 seconds to the fight, or 40 extra damage taken on the JBB Shaman.

Just so we do not quibble over a few points here and there, 2x Canni 3 only recovers 76 points of mana, so the DoT Shaman would also be down 20 mana, which is 40 HP converted. You would need to spend 6 seconds to meditate 1 extra tick to cover that, so you aren't gaining time either.

Of course we still aren't taking into account root breaks, root break damage, fizzles, spell resists, mob regen, etc. on the DoTing Shaman, which weakens them further.

Will you agree that Troxx is incorrect now?