Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[lethdar]

The entire server's population doesn't browse these forums, and on top of that there i doubt many people would want to look lame by posting that.

A lot of the data comes from vztz's population, which went from low, sub 100 with item loot, up to a max of 350ish without item loot, down to a low of sub 100 on 3.0 until item loot was removed at which point it had a rebound upwards again.

While people point out "vztz =/= p99", the crowd they draw from are really probably more or less the same when it comes to what they're willing to tolerate in their eq gameplay. With item loot people who are new to playing or new to eq pvp are severely punished, beyond the point of being willing to play on vztz for a significant portion of them. If anything this problem is likely to be worse on red99 due to the greatly increased time required to farm any item that would be lost when x2 wizards pop in and 1 shot some unsuspecting person.

I played, Guildwars, VZTZ,other emulated servers etc, and I'll be playing either way, however what I would like is a larger server with more people to encounter and fight and everything I've experienced on these various servers indicates that item loot scares and griefs away more players than coin loot.

I don't see why this trend wouldn't continue here.

[Envious]

I dont think anyone will admit to not playing with item loot, but its just too hard on the melees. And esp tanks. They need the items to be able to pvp, and the gearing up time is just too rough to risk it.

On P99 I have seen people spend 20hr straight at frenzy, with no sash. You really think people will not /ragequit when they spend a week+ farming frenzy with guild etc, just to have it ganked when they go grab a drink?

And before you "Should long when you get a drink, or should have bagged it" yeah, I know. But its gonna happen, and most of the people posting here from VZ/TZ have no fucking clue about the drop %s on P99.

Personally, I dont care either way. But I see it being better for population with no item loot. And messing with the loot tables always means taking more than 1 shot to figure it out, so better to leave as it is, and no item loot imo.

But I would still play.

[Nirgon]

If VZTZ was blue it woulda had the same / less pop probably, argue that one.

You can also argue the people that left VZ/TZ didn't feel like they should have to risk any of the advantage they had there which was a lot of it.

This also addresses level range specific twinks having no risk.

I dont think we're looking at a top heavy, MQ'ing population here. Nor are we looking at an entirely like minded player base.

[Envious]

De-leveling and twinking was part of the fun.

Teuful (Previously lvl 55 DE warrior, de-leveled to 20, with full planar + fungi + FoZ + Jade Mace + Zerker Cloak + Full Resist gear)

[Nirgon]

Yeah if you wanna do that and risk your fungi in the world I remember, have fun with that man :P.

Again, the classic xp.

[Yukahwa]

Originally Posted by lethdar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With item loot people who are new to playing or new to eq pvp are severely punished...

This is an argument that I strongly disagree with. The very first time I played rallos zek, it was a blast. I was brand new, got killed mercilessly dozens of times, but it was a lot of fun. Greater faydark was larger and darker then and around every corner could be a guy just waiting to take me out. I was utterly poor in the game, but it was the most fun I've ever had.

The goal of course was for me to one day go and kill those players and attain the items that made them so powerful. I fought with them constantly and tried to catch them when they were weak since that was the only time I had a chance. This is all below level 10.

Without item loot, all I am doing is fighting someone who vastly overpowers me who will respawn in a few seconds and come kill me again. There is simply no reason to fight these players, it really makes every level besides the highest level suck.

Yes, with item loot an individual can bag...but for a weakling like I was in those early days, that itself was a victory. I got to shout in the zone about it, and with each valuable item bagged, that strong PK became less powerful and easier to kill.

Really it is non item loot that hurts new players by making the entire new dynamic (PVP) rewardless. Many players will go to a zone to level up..great. Some guy will come to try to kill them..bummer. With item loot there are 2 options.

1. PK is geared poorly because he doesn't want to lose his good gear..Result = PK is easy to kill and force out of the zone.

2. PK is geared well and has good items...Result = me and my grinding group will try to take him out or if there is a group..we will try to take ONE of them out and get something for our pains. We might have to leave but we also might regroup after first being wiped and try to kill 1 of those well geared guys. If they all start bagging then they get easier to kill.

Without item loot there is only 1 option. The PK will be twinked as well as he can afford, he will be hard to kill solo or in a team, and he will overpower you unless you are also a twink grinding up an alt.

Please dont tell me that casters don't need gear. The only players that can't kill a naked caster easily (SOLO) are rogues, monks, and warriors. Everyone else can either root or snare or blind the naked caster and kill them in under a minute when wielding a minotaur battle axe or better. Whoever attacks first in this case is likely to be the winner.

Yes. A solo warrior will lose to a solo mage. Warrior's are not a solo class and these low levels are going to be tough. That is an irrefutable fact regardless of item loot on/off. Even maxed out in old world your resists are going to be very poor, so PLEASE don't say that a melee needs item loot off. Melees have their own advantages and any melee trying to level up should be in a group anyways. A melee + any caster can easily take out a magician. Bronze provides enough AC throughout the old world to get you to level 50 without real problems as a tank. If you want to wear your fancy stuff its a risk. If a mage wears his oracle robe its a risk for him too. Without the oracle robe he has very little mana to kill you when you have any friend with you.

It really works o.k. considering the fact that the game was not really meant for well rounded PVP. Its not as balanced as a rock paper scissors match..but its not as boring either.



CONCLUSION - for anyone who doesn't like to read.

1. PVP without item loot for the poor and weak means PVP is just a nuisance. It gets in the way of attaining the levels and gear you want. The only goal is to get to level 50, get good gear, and then when you get bored make a twink PK of your own.

2. PVP with item loot means PVE and PVP engagements can both be rewarding. PVE is rewarding because it gets you the levels that bring you closer to better gear and a more even footing with PK's. PVP is rewarding because it can also earn you a piece of gear that makes you more powerful, or just richer.

[Nirgon]

Not everyone is going to attack every person they see. I also don't think the goal here is to create incentive to PvP like previous emu servers/projects. Many people think that is the case. This is a server with the option of pvp, not an arena death match.

I'd even debate the 8 level range versus a 4 level range with item loot, but I know the "nay"s would be all over that and I'd risk being labeled a bluebie.

[Yukahwa]

I won't call you a bluebie. Your opinions are valid and you have valid points and valid concerns about the drawbacks of item loot.

There needs to be an incentive for people who dont want to PVP to fight off those that do want to PVP. The server doesn't have a PVP option. It is forced. All of Norrath is the arena.

If there is no incentive to PVP for grinding players trying to get to level 50, it is just a hassle. Rest assured, wherever you go to level, you will be hunted by someone. Even if you don't want to PVP it will happen to you. If there is no possible positive outcome to fighting a PK..why do it?

[Cfullard]

I played on Vallon Zek when they switched to item loot, and let me explain how this was good and bad. It was amazing fun because I got to actually use the gear I worked hard to obtain anywhere but in a PvE situation. It was bad because it promoted low level twinks running around in fungal tunics as melee and ruining the experience for low levels.

Teams pushed teamwork, and it worked amazing. It worked so well there were raids where one side would invade another region, again lots of fun to be hard there. Teams also pushed cross-teaming but back then the Vallon Zek and Tallon Zek code wasn't like Sullon Zek. Had TZ and VZ (not that abortion free server that keeps popping up like a strange plague) actually had this coding I believed the server would have been so amazing.

A lot of people complained (read whine) that if they can't group with their friends then the server sucks. Well I would suggest you coordinate with your friends so you all end up on the same side. (But what if they don't want to) then kill them, pretty simple isn't it?

Teams PvP promotes community and promotes teamwork, FFA pvp promotes guilds, nothing more. Teams PvP promotes area domination and also promotes fighting for land, you can't have that on FFA.

All I know is, if red 99 ends up being another FFA PvP server with no item loot / coin loot and what have you, I won't be playing there. I am looking forward to a teams based PvP server, something that hasn't been done as of yet. If I want the same old hat VZTZ, im sure another server will pop up in a week.

4 Teams PvP
Item Loot
Coin Loot
No Xp Loss / No Xp Gain
Just like it was on live. It worked EXTREMELY well there, and thus I think it will work extremely well here.

[Billbike]

Item loot fails because of bagging and the risk of ganking.

Gank squads will be at every druid ring and wiz spire.

Everyone will end up playing casters, who can kill naked. Why risk pvp when it's more of a risk for your class?(melee/hybrid)

Most fights are predetermined. The one who initiates the pvp wins prolly 75% of the time. If said initiater is better geared, higher level, or just the right class, it jumps to near 100%.

So why would that player who is being attacked not immediately run/gate and or start bagging their valuables?