monk ratios, primary and offhand choices - Page 43

bcbrown · #**421** 11-23-2024, 04:29 PM

First look at DSM's parse:

2h:
132 punches, max of 40, min of 1, 21/132 or 16% hit for 18. No other value occurs more than 9 times
216 crushes, max of 171, min of 22, 23/216 or 11% hit for 94. Only other value in double digits is the minimum, 13 times

1h:
213 crushes, max of 68, min of 2, 23/213 or 11% hit for 34. Only other value in double digits is the minimum, 13 times
469 punches, max of 44, min of 10, 42/469 or 9% hit for 27. Lots of other values have a count in the 20s or 30s, nothing else in the 40s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Given we saw 44 (or 35 + 9) damage mainhand, I'd expect a max offhand hit of 35 versus the observed max of 31. I predict a longer parse would show a max offhand punch of 35 or 36.

Max offhand punch in the longer parse is 40. Prediction semi-confirmed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I predict a longer parse may show a max offhand crush of 68.

Prediction confirmed.

Troxx, do you still think this spike at ~average damage is an artifact of small samples?

Troxx · #**422** 11-23-2024, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx, do you still think this spike at ~average damage is an artifact of small samples?

The pattern is pretty consistent. Looks like a lot more than artifact to me.

bcbrown · #**423** 11-23-2024, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

==========================
2h IFS parse on Giants.
==========================
16964 damage over 553 seconds = 30.68 DPS with fistweaving

15023 damage over 553 seconds = 27.5 DPS without fistweaving

207 punch swings / 297 crush swings = 70% dual wield chance.

==========================
1h Epic Fist + SoS Giant Parse
==========================
16712 damage over 552 seconds = 30.28 DPS
305 crush swings / 730 punch swings = 42% chance to dual wield.

Damage calculations look good. I'm not going to try to confirm the time duration.

Why do you think the dual wield success rate is only 42% on the 1h parse? Are you sure you did that calculation correctly?

DeathsSilkyMist · #**424** 11-23-2024, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Damage calculations look good. I'm not going to try to confirm the time duration.

Why do you think the dual wield success rate is only 42% on the 1h parse? Are you sure you did that calculation correctly?

16 delay from Epic Fist divided by 28 Delay from SoS is 0.57.

For every 100 Epic Fist Swings, we'd get 57 SoS swings. Dual Wield has a 75% chance to trigger as a level 52 monk with max Dual Wield skill, so 57 * 0.75 = 42.75 Dual Wield attempts.

42 out of 100 is 42%. We got the number spot on funnily enough.

This also works out with the fistweaving result of 70%. The dual wield delay for fistweaving is tied to the 2h's delay, as you always unequip your 2h weapon after a 2h swing. So you should get 75 dual wield attempts for every 100 swings. Because fistweaving is a manual process, it is prone to human error. You'll probably rarely get 75% exactly. I am sure I missed at least a few fistweaves. I think I did well at 70% Dual Wields. That means I only missed 7% of my fistweave chances.

bcbrown · #**425** 11-23-2024, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

16 delay from Epic Fist divided by 28 Delay from SoS is 0.57.

For every 100 Epic Fist Swings, we'd get 57 SoS swings. Dual Wield has a 75% chance to trigger as a level 52 monk with max Dual Wield skill, so 57 * 0.75 = 42.75 Dual Wield attempts.

42 out of 100 is 42%. We got the number spot on funnily enough.

Wait, you're assuming a 75% chance to trigger. From the data you logged, what's the actual number? 42% is clearly not the "chance to trigger", it's a different calculation, right?

We should be able to calculate the actual % chance to trigger dual wield, and it should be roughly 75%, right?

Getting 70% instead of 75% makes sense for 2h as you said, since you might have missed some weaves.

DeathsSilkyMist · #**426** 11-23-2024, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wait, you're assuming a 75% chance to trigger. From the data you logged, what's the actual number? 42% is clearly not the "chance to trigger", it's a different calculation, right?

We should be able to calculate the actual % chance to trigger dual wield, and it should be roughly 75%, right?

Getting 70% instead of 75% makes sense for 2h as you said, since you might have missed some weaves.

Let me see if I can explain it a bit more clearly, it is kind of confusing. For Monks at least (I don't have another high level dual wield class to test with), they should have a 75% chance to trigger dual wield at level 50 with max Dual Wield Skill.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Dual_Wield

When the delay of both weapons is the same, you will get 100 primary swings and 100 offhand swings. With a 75% chance to dual wield, you should get 75 dual wield attempts for every 100 primary hand swings.

If your offhand delay is slower, you will get less swings. In the case of SoS, you only get 57 offhand swings for every 100 Epic Fist swings. 75% of 57 is 42 dual wield attempts for every 100 primary hand swings.

So your offhand delay affects how many dual wield swings you end up getting. Generally speaking offhand weapons with slower delays have higher damage, so the higher damage makes up for the less swings. That's why you just put the best ratio weapon you can in offhand.

DeathsSilkyMist · #**427** 11-24-2024, 12:34 AM

Did one more parse on a different mob. This is using a 52 Monk, testing an XP mob on the 6th floor of Tower of Frozen Shadow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1aJNKsxa8A

2h Parse IFS:

19209 Damage over 530 seconds = 36.2 DPS

207 punches / 304 crushes = 68% chance to dual wield.

1h parse Epic Fist + SoS:

17706 damage over 529 seconds = 33.4 DPS

301 crush swings / 689 punch swings = 43.6% chance to dual wield

The slight increase of the DPS gap is due to the variability in levels of the mobs being parsed. They can range from 37-42, and I was killing them.

When looking at this data paired with:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402

It is pretty clear that the data is not random at this point. Four different mobs all showing the same thing:

The 1h Epic Fist + SoS Damage and the 2h IFS Damage with fistweaving are close together DPS-wise at level 52, with IFS slightly in the lead. 1h Epic Fist + SoS does more damage than IFS without fistweaving.

This means Troxx's idea that Corudoth is an invalid parse target is wrong. The chances of all of these mobs somehow sharing some special setup that makes them all "trivial" compared to my Monk is unlikely. This is especially unlikely considering I was parsing against level 50 Giants I couldn't even kill solo in the linked post above. Those certainly shouldn't be "trivial".

I don't believe Troxx's idea of "trivial" mobs parsing a certain way makes sense, at least for XP mobs a level 52 Monk would be encountering. If all mobs below level 52 are "trivial", then the results would be consistent across all XP mobs anyway, which supports my position. We don't even know how this "trivial" formula from Troxx works.

Jimjam · #**428** 11-24-2024, 03:49 AM

If the eqemu research into mob mitigation values I linked previously is correct and those values are implemented correctly on p99, the implication is xp mobs up to 60 should all be ‘trivial’ in terms of beating their mitigation for your monk.

I’d love to see you pop by a vindi (or even better AoW but that isn’t so trivial to stumble across) and see if the relative difference in dw/2h persists.

Troxx · #**429** 11-24-2024, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the eqemu research into mob mitigation values I linked previously is correct and those values are implemented correctly on p99, the implication is xp mobs up to 60 should all be ‘trivial’ in terms of beating their mitigation for your monk.

Doubtful he'll take any of us (me especially) at our word for it. It's ok. He seems to have a had a fire lit under his ass at this point. If he leaves the napkins in the kitchen and keeps collecting actual data he will figure it out sooner or later.

I'm proud of him.

He has thus far whacked on a level 5 turtle, a level 50 giant in FM, and some garbage in TOFS. I mean ... how much more of this game is left other than that?

Quote:

I’d love to see you pop by a vindi (or even better AoW but that isn’t so trivial to stumble across) and see if the relative difference in dw/2h persists.

He's at a a unique level right now for his monk that he will see the interesting phenomenon that his epic fist + SoS will pull ahead of IFS + fistweaving if he ever gets around to parsing a non-trivial mob.

DeathsSilkyMist · #**430** 11-24-2024, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the eqemu research into mob mitigation values I linked previously is correct and those values are implemented correctly on p99, the implication is xp mobs up to 60 should all be ‘trivial’ in terms of beating their mitigation for your monk.

I’d love to see you pop by a vindi (or even better AoW but that isn’t so trivial to stumble across) and see if the relative difference in dw/2h persists.

If this is the case, then I am still correct Corudoth is a good parse target. Troxx was still wrong about that. You can accurately compare DPS between different weapons (including how much STR affects DPS), and these comparisons will be accurate for 95% or more of mobs in the game. You don't need to parse every non-raid mob out there. Corudoth has no special property that changes how he parses when comparing different weapons.

I already showed previously how a high mitigation target like AoW can skew more in favor of damage bonus.

This was known already. If you want to parse a specific target, do it. That was also known already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doubtful he'll take any of us (me especially) at our word for it. It's ok. He seems to have a had a fire lit under his ass at this point. If he leaves the napkins in the kitchen and keeps collecting actual data he will figure it out sooner or later.

I'm proud of him.

He has thus far whacked on a level 5 turtle, a level 50 giant in FM, and some garbage in TOFS. I mean ... how much more of this game is left other than that?

He's at a a unique level right now for his monk that he will see the interesting phenomenon that his epic fist + SoS will pull ahead of IFS + fistweaving if he ever gets around to parsing a non-trivial mob.

It is clear at this point Troxx has a flaw in his understanding of P99 parses and how melee damage works. I picked four random mobs out of a hat with different levels and from different expansions. They all had the same parsing pattern. The odds of that happening is quite low. For someone who supposedly parses everyday, this should give Troxx pause. If Troxx wants to keep pretending he can never be wrong, that's his choice. I've provided enough evidence to cast serious doubt on his claims:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

No more freebies (as Troxx will say). He needs to provide data at this point if he wants to counter this data. If Troxx wants to spend his time writing paragraphs of off topic nonsense instead, I cannot stop him. I can just point back to this data, and the reader can decide who is more credible.