sk starting points

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody said "significant" nor did anyone say "500 hps".
Ad hominem to straw man. Whatever it takes to win, I guess.

I will say your Magelo is about 500hps down but mainly due to bad decision making. Not 20 stats at the character create screen.

The 500 HP comment is an example, I didn't claim anybody said it. The DPS formula is a math formula, just like the STA formula. That is my point. There is an objective answer in both formulas, and providing the wrong answer is a problem in both cases. You shouldn't let people say 20 STA gives you 500 HP, nor should you let people inflate the DPS number for STR.

Plenty of people have claimed the DPS will be noticeable. They claimed you will level faster. If you are saying the DPS will not be noticeable and help you level faster, why bring it up as a factor when considering STR?

[Troxx]

Oooo I did find my old magelo though!

I sold it when the level cap was 80 for thousands of dollars. It doesn’t look like the buyer (who moved him to bertoxx) ever changed a piece of his gear. (Not sure on augments)

https://eq.magelo.com/profile/1274599

Not sure why the magelo is showing his ac as low as it is. I want to say I had the second or third highest serverwide warrior ac at the time.

[Jimjam]

Maybe they changed displayed AC to show ‘real’ ac accounting for caps?

Edit(in reply to why Troxx’s displayed AC is so low)

[Jimjam]

Great code you found.

Shouldn’t the presence of 2 rolls (roll for attack and roll for defence) create a normal distribution (like how rolling 2d6 creates a bell curve where 2 and 12 are 1/36 each, 3 and 11 are 3/36 going up to the most common result, 7 which is 6/36)?

The question is why aren’t hits amounts on mr turtle looking very normally distributed? Each fight he has like 100 hits for 1 specific hit value and the many (more than 19) other hit values tend to only occur a couple of times??

Edit: Interestingly mr turtle himself only hit for one value (like 30 times per fight).

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Great code you found.

Shouldn’t the presence of 2 rolls (roll for attack and roll for defence) create a normal distribution (like how rolling 2d6 creates a bell curve where 2 and 12 are 1/36 each, 3 and 11 are 3/36 going up to the most common result, 7 which is 6/36)?

The question is why aren’t hits amounts on mr turtle looking very normally distributed? Each fight he has like 100 hits for 1 specific hit value and the many (more than 19) other hit values tend to only occur a couple of times??

Edit: Interestingly mr turtle himself only hit for one value (like 30 times per fight).

Yes, 2d10 with the formula:

int index = std::max(0, (atk_roll - def_roll) + (avg / 2))

is going to be normally distributed. However, rounding all the outputs up is going to skew it slightly rightward. Also skewed higher than the expected cluster around 10 with 2d10 by the addition of avg/2 to roll difference. Evidence:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I believe the reason Mr. Turtle isn't normally distributed is because of this:

auto atk_roll = zone->random.Roll0(offense + 5);
auto def_roll = zone->random.Roll0(mitigation + 5);

int avg = (offense + mitigation + 10) / 2;

The modifiers on your hits are overwhelming the modifiers on his defense, producing consistently high outputs. The fact that mitigation is added to offense tells me the calculation for mitigation might result in a negative value or it is modified in some other way before final result.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Great code you found.

Shouldn’t the presence of 2 rolls (roll for attack and roll for defence) create a normal distribution (like how rolling 2d6 creates a bell curve where 2 and 12 are 1/36 each, 3 and 11 are 3/36 going up to the most common result, 7 which is 6/36)?

The question is why aren’t hits amounts on mr turtle looking very normally distributed? Each fight he has like 100 hits for 1 specific hit value and the many (more than 19) other hit values tend to only occur a couple of times??

Edit: Interestingly mr turtle himself only hit for one value (like 30 times per fight).

We can take a quick look. This is using the https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient...ched_Flamberge on my 60 Shadowknight.

1. Scenario with 350 offense, 260 Max Damage, and 350 mitigation:
1a. atk_roll = Average roll between 0 and 350 = 175.
1b. def_roll = Average roll between 0 and 350 = 175.
1c. avg = (175 atk_roll + 175 def_roll + 10) / 2 = 180.
1d. index = (175 atk_roll - 175 def_roll) + (180 avg / 2) = 90.
1e. index = (90 index * 20) / 180 avg = 10.
1f. index 10 in the array is 1.1.
1g. Average damage value is (260 Max damage / 2) * 1.1 = 143.

1. Scenario with 337 offense (-20 STR), 254 Max Damage, and 350 mitigation:
1a. atk_roll = Average roll between 0 and 337 = 169 (rounded up).
1b. def_roll = Average roll between 0 and 350 = 175.
1c. avg = (169 atk_roll + 175 def_roll + 10) / 2 = 177.
1d. index = (169 atk_roll - 175 def_roll) + (177 avg / 2) = 83 (rounded up).
1e. index = (83 index * 20) / 177 avg = 9.3.
1f. index 9 in the array is 1.0, with a 30% chance to move up to index 10, which is 1.1
1g. Average damage value is (254 Max damage / 2) * 1.0 = 127.
1h. Average damage value is (254 Max damage / 2) * 1.1 = 140 (rounded up).
1i. In a data set of [127, 127, 127, 127, 127, 127, 127, 140, 140, 140], adding up these numbers and dividing by 10 gives you and average of 131.

This implies the 20 STR is giving you a 8.5% (131/143) difference in your average damage at level 60 with a 46 damage weapon. On Corudoth I missed 49 times and hit for 496 times on the 2H test, so on a mob 55 levels below you, it looks like you will hit 90% of the time. so 90% of 8.5 is a 7.6% increase in DPS.

On harder mobs your hit rate is much lower. Looking through some quick parses it is more like you are missing 40-50% of the time on a tougher mob, but I don't have a large sample at hand. This means the 4-5% number I got from my turtle parses happened to be just about right. RNG simply didn't give me the 7.6% high end, it gave me the middle and lower ends.

4-5% of a DPS increase is really not a large boost for most players during the leveling process. If you are doing ~20 DPS around level 30, a 4% boost to that is 0.8. 3600 x 0.8 = 2880 damage per hour, assuming you are auto attacking non-stop. Realistically speaking you are probably getting half that. A mob like https://wiki.project1999.com/Travis_Two_Tone has 875 HP, so you are getting 1-2 more kills per hour if you are XPing at maximum efficiency. If you are semi-afk killing Travis Two Tone, you are getting 0 extra kills per hour.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We can take a quick look. This is using the https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient...ched_Flamberge on my 60 Shadowknight.

1. Scenario with 350 offense, 260 Max Damage, and 350 mitigation:

Where are you getting these values for offense and mitigation?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where are you getting these values for offense and mitigation?

Good question. I got the offense values from a previous post I made:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446

The offense value is correct based on real data and code as far as I can tell. I am using my SK's STR and Offense Skill, as well as the damage from the Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge.

The mitigation value is made up. I am simply showing what a mob with equal mitigation value would look like.

Feel free to manipulate the mitigation value as you see fit.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good question. I got the offense values from a previous post I made:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446

The offense value is correct based on real data and code as far as I can tell. I am using my SK's STR and Offense Skill, as well as the damage from the Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge.

The mitigation value is made up. I am simply showing what a mob with equal mitigation value would look like.

Feel free to manipulate the mitigation value as you see fit.

Ok, looking back at your post, this is not true:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The EQEMU source code is available. P99 is based off of this code. I can show you the P99 max damage formula is unchanged when compared to the EQEMU code:

P99 does not use the EQEMU source code for damage calculation:

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Code:
Kanras: Removed hard "calculated damage" cap for < 10 and < 20 players, replaced with weapon_dmg cap.
Kanras: Archery weapon_dmg is once again correctly being calculated.
Kanras: Backstab and sneak now require you to be behind the mob to succeed, rather than requiring you to only be outside the mob's frontal attack cone.
Kanras: More accurate NPC backstab and flying kick damage ranges.
Kanras: All potential double attack/dual wield rolls will succeed for all attack types when using Kinesthetics.
Kanras: Pets will use same calculations as PCs when doing double attack/dual wield rolls.
Kanras: Corrected the rate at which warriors triple attack.
Kanras: Offhand double attack can only succeed if double attack skill >= 150.
Kanras: High-level monks can now carry increased weight without penalty. The additional allowance is granted at levels 55 and 60.
Kanras: Two-handed weapons have had their damage-bonus modified. The damage-bonus for low-delay two-handed weapons (27 or below) created a problem similar to the weapons below and has been reduced. The damage-bonus has not changed for normal-delay (28-39) two-handed weapons. The damage bonus for high-delay two-handed weapons (40+) has been increased.
Kanras: "Damage Table" changes. In a previous patch, they were used to justify higher PC_DMG_MULT cap (correct) and a PWR-based method for calculating the max roll (incorrect). They now account for adjusting distribution of successful hits rather than just increasing the max possible hit. Chance to successfully dual wield/double attack is also affected by the damage table you are on.

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basic summary to melee DPS changes: 60 rog/mnk/war/rng will see very, very minor DPS reduction due to max mult. reduction. 1-50 non-mnk will see a decent dps reduction due to distribution changes. 51-59 rog/mnk/war/rng will have a small reduction in DPS due to max mult reduction and in-between distribution reduction.

Pet attack frequency/damage changes: Yes, they're justified due to data.

It doesn't even take parsing to show that P99's max damage formula is the same as EQEMU, but that's just a small part of gross damage calculation. You aren't going to be able to derive the actual, entire damage tables/formulas from parsing because there are too many variables (mob level, AC, etc). Beating on a low level mob is going to obscure the distribution and overrepresent max hits. Knowing max hit calculation is of limited usefulness, only showing the contribution from strength for a small slice of total combat.

(However, as I showed about 20 pages ago, looking only at max hit is sufficient to show strength is better than INT from a pure numbers perspective because the contribution from INT is that paltry.)

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4-5% of a DPS increase is really not a large boost for most players during the leveling process.

In a game of inches like p99 a 4-5% dps increase from something as simple as a measly 20 str is a whopper of a difference. Its more than the difference you’d see upgrading from a 34% haste belt to a 41% raid item. It’s about the same difference you’d expect upgrading FBSS (21%) to RBB (31%). If 100% haste doubles your damage output, it would take 8-10% difference in haste to result in a 4-5% dps output boost.

There are only 4 things a person can do to directly influence their melee dps without buffs:
-better weapon setup (ratio etc)
-more worn haste
-more strength (up to the cap)
-worn attack items

There is a reason every melee strives to have as much str as you can - all the way up to the 255 cap. All things considered equal, the player with more strength will put out more than the player with less.

An Iksar sk is not going to be getting to 255 str without maniacal str AND focus stack until you start thinking moderate to high level raid gear. This is well beyond an iksar SK alt to mess around with greenmist. Sure with avatar, but for that they are either a high end raider with BiS potential and their own proc or a level 60 shaman following them around.

Let’s use my warrior as an example. Starting strength of 100. I dumped most or all of my starting stats into dexterity because procs are the lifeblood of warrior threat. I don’t know if I put 5 points into stamina or not. I honestly don’t remember.

Here’s my warrior with 100 naked str:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Bedavir

My gear what you’ll expect as a very well geared casual raider. Nothing overly flashy but solid enough and beyond the level the OP is probably going to take their SK. Meaningful upgrades from here are going to be mostly limited NToV, kings, AoW/Statue, Tunare and sleepers.

I’m sitting at 186 strength. If the iksar sk put all 20 stats into str and had comparable gear … it would be pretty similar. Focus gets me to 253 str. Less if I have to put in some resist gear for whatever reason.