Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[Cfullard]

Originally Posted by Billbike [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's just stick to the vote. When I played on live, 3 of the 4 pvp servers were no item loot, I wonder why?

Originally ALL the PvP servers (Minus Sullon Zek which came out with no item loot from the start) were item loot and coin loot as well as coin loot. There was a large population of players there as well, and the PvP was a fun even if you did lose items. You had no casters, yes, but all in all the server was still a lot of fun and people still fought in gear even if they were casters.

The answer to why the servers were changed to no-item loot was because carebears got tired of farming items when they were ganked so they whined, and whined, and whine some more. Sony listened to the whiners because "Everquest is first and foremost a PvE game" So the loot system to no item loot / coin only and guess what happened? High end PvP mostly stopped and there were a LOT, a LOT more PvP twinks running around from the level ranges of 8-16 (because level 8 is when you could start PvPing players.)

I encourage item loot because yes, you can get ganked but it also forces players to be more situationally aware and observe their surroundings. It also makes players be more cautious with their play and actually think about their odds of survival when they engage. Yes, there was a LOT less warriors, but I honestly can say it didn't kill them off.

And to the trolls. If you can't give a good arguement to support your claim? Shut the hell up.

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by Cfullard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally ALL the PvP servers (Minus Sullon Zek which came out with no item loot from the start) were item loot and coin loot as well as coin loot. There was a large population of players there as well, and the PvP was a fun even if you did lose items. You had no casters, yes, but all in all the server was still a lot of fun and people still fought in gear even if they were casters.

The answer to why the servers were changed to no-item loot was because carebears got tired of farming items when they were ganked so they whined, and whined, and whine some more. Sony listened to the whiners because "Everquest is first and foremost a PvE game" So the loot system to no item loot / coin only and guess what happened? High end PvP mostly stopped and there were a LOT, a LOT more PvP twinks running around from the level ranges of 8-16 (because level 8 is when you could start PvPing players.)

I encourage item loot because yes, you can get ganked but it also forces players to be more situationally aware and observe their surroundings. It also makes players be more cautious with their play and actually think about their odds of survival when they engage. Yes, there was a LOT less warriors, but I honestly can say it didn't kill them off.

And to the trolls. If you can't give a good arguement to support your claim? Shut the hell up.

Or, as it is known in English, the majority were against it and Sony wisely catered to the majority. It shouldn't be too difficult to understand, nor is it a huge mystery why all three itemloot servers got rid of itemloot. PvPing for gear is fun for a little while, but even winning a piece loses its novelty after a while as people figure out that the whole gear aspect of the game - by far the most prominent part of Everquest - is rendered largely pointless when you can and will lose your items on a regular basis. Having to fight without gear on isn't fun, nor is the insane imbalance that occurs when you compare what each class can do without gear. If you choose to wear your gear, you face a number of realities that just kill the game for most: lose link? Lose your best item. Get raped by a ganksquad? Lose your best item. Get one-shot by some overpowered crap? Lose your best item. Your child is about to drink oven cleaner and you have to run and stop him? Lose your best item. We're not in high school anymore, and the prospect of losing what might have taken days or weeks to acquire is just not an appealing feature anymore. Everquest's already sketchy PvP becomes even worse when you can't rely on itemization to do its part to even out what wasn't designed very well. It seems pretty clear that most people are starkly against itemloot, so until a poll proves otherwise, it's hard to take anyone seriously when they claim that itemloot is an important part of EQ PvP. To me, it completely ruins it. The incentive to grief and cheat becomes too big, the inherent imbalances become hugely amplified, and the actual EQ gameplay becomes meaningless. Itemloot would only have a place if this was some insular arena game based wholly on the act of fighting evenly matched fights against other players. Since that's not the case, itemloot can stay the hell away.

[Xareth]

Originally Posted by Billbike [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's just stick to the vote. When I played on live, 3 of the 4 pvp servers were no item loot, I wonder why?

So if I (downs pvp virgin) want to play basketball (pvp) in the NBA (r99) and win, I need to be of African decent (caster in this example) because of my genetics (class play mechanics in an environment that makes it easier for certain classes to exploit the rules of the server)?

Hahahaha I love it

Originally Posted by Yukahwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Xareth - The fact that I could get killed many times and still enjoyed playing PVP really doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is item loot on the server. I didn't have anything worth looting at all..this is lvl 1 I'm talking about. I was still killed just for the fun of killing me.

Bluebies that can't handle dying this way will certainly not play on R99. For everyone else, I think they are more likely to stick around if they dont get dominated by people 8 levels more powerful then them..and the twinks that do dominate them actually represent an opportunity for a nice piece of droppable gear instead of an unstoppable unpunishable force.

1. Dying sucks. If you have marginalized the importance of winning, then kudos to you.

2. You won't be able to pvp until 6+ I'm assuming, and it's not like it will take an hour to get there.

3. If it's item loot then the +/- 8 (most favorable) range could be reassessed - reason being the same reason why item loot will shrink the population.

[Goobles]

exp for pvp kills too, imo.

[trafik3535]

Thanks a lot...

[Billbike]

Ok, basic math escapes me I guess.

Limiting the level range to 4 levels (for item loot) would raise the amount of pvp on a server with 300 people?

[Yukahwa]

Xareth - The fact that I could get killed many times and still enjoyed playing PVP really doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is item loot on the server. I didn't have anything worth looting at all..this is lvl 1 I'm talking about. I was still killed just for the fun of killing me.

Bluebies that can't handle dying this way will certainly not play on R99. For everyone else, I think they are more likely to stick around if they dont get dominated by people 8 levels more powerful then them..and the twinks that do dominate them actually represent an opportunity for a nice piece of droppable gear instead of an unstoppable unpunishable force.

[istealbicycles]

wow I think xp death is no good. We need at least coin loot though because if you are not smart enough to bank or destory your coin then its mine!!!!!

[Nirgon]

I'm saying 8 levels and coin is smart for the server. Adding xp loss in raid zones is maybe a good idea. You'd have to consider solb, seb being primary leveling areas with legit raid targets. Continue to think about this and you run into zones like EJ which are high traffic areas with a raid mob.

I think you're best off allowing player enforced loot and scoot, 8 levels and coin. A high population is the most important part and it is true that item loot will hurt the population overall.

Training should only be considered in blatant cases, aka: a single person comes hauling it in with 20 mobs on him. The grey areas of mobs that become involved during pvp in zones is going to happen, be insane to enforce and in enforced cases create "GM favoritism/server ruined" situations despite best efforts.

Intentional xp loss on Rallos was enforced by GMs and that'd smack you down something good for doing it upon investigation.

I do not remember the exact rules that covered trains in raid zones but I do know for a fact there was a suspension issued for someone dispelling the Statue of Rallos Zek and causing a wipe. Do I agree with that decision? I dunno :P.

[greatdane]

Just having a rule against training will significantly reduce occurrences. Not every case will be investigated, but if it's actually allowed, I can guarantee that it will become a hugely common tactic. It has to be disallowed or you can fully expect everyone to use training as their primary means of content-dispute PvP. Enemy guild raiding? Train them. Want that camp? Train them. Someone talked shit? Train his group. It was so retardedly widespread on SZ that it was impossible to play the game at times, because all it took was one or two dedicated trainers to basically prevent you from raiding or XPing at all. There should be a rule against training, and the administrators should only be expected to inestigate cases where someone can provide visible evidence that proves clearly that someone deliberately trained. For anything else, the simple fact that there's a rule against it will largely prevent it from becoming the norm. Just because you can't make a phenomenon disappear completely by disallowing it does not mean that disallowing it serves no purpose. Crime takes place all the time in real life, but if there were no laws or they didn't sometimes get enforced, it would be completely out of control. The rules will be enough to keep it on a manageable level, and then they can investigate cases that are actually important and documented enough to warrant it. Training is so effortless and almost impossible to combat, and I certainly don't feel like playing a game where getting trained regularly is just an accepted reality.