Hey Forsaken

[arsenalpow]

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Recruiting any level 60 warrior you see Forsaken?? Y I K E S!

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

[Mistle]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No it doesn't strongly suggest that at all. You must agree that it doesn't strongly suggest anything regarding the situation.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

It definitely does once the context of the players involved, regardless of the name above their head, is included. With the exception of one Omni character, the raiding Forsaken were composed entirely of raiders from a single class C guild (including at least one who didn't even bother to change the tag until after he was already actively attempting to gain FTE for Forsaken). This indicates that class C guild must ask for permission to drop to class R. Forsaken was a class C guild regardless of what tag they had decided to fly.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nope not reasonable. Cherry picking data.

Your opinion is noted however the evidence presented against you is both valid and strong. I hope you will realize... eventually... that you are not the sole arbiter of what is valid or not. Anything else is just jamming your head in the sand.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What does any guild have to prove? Why does Forsaken have specialized expectations? BDA has been killing Sev Maestro etc for years. BDA is allowed to be Class R.

Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

It is not whether or not BDA is capable of being in Class C, it is whether or not it unfairly dominates class R, which it does not.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nope. I think its a better position to allow a new guild who fractured to decide its path. The judgement was an extra unneeded social control that serves no real purpose.

Of course it serves a purpose, its the same purpose as putting the class system in place in the first place. If you don't agree with the class system, then you really have no standing to argue any of the particulars at all. In any event, the evidence presented that a daughter guild without any influx of outsiders is not a new guild is somewhere between very strong and overwhelming, and follows directly from something undeniable: what actually happened. Theorycrafted arguments tend to fall away at that point.

All you really have is "Rogean was wrong". Given the ruling, the burden of proof is on you to show how, and every element you've tried to bring up has met with overwhelming counterevidence. Or, to put another way, you've tried to show that Forsaken should be treated as a new entity but your argument is weak and unconvincing.

[Nibblewitz]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRe8J4scGtU

[Uggme]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Recruiting any level 60 warrior you see Forsaken?? Y I K E S!

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

Holy crap... Those SS's actually made me cringe. Pretty weak recruitment attempt. Hell, at least start off with some small talk or something.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It definitely does once the context of the players involved, regardless of the name above their head, is included. With the exception of one Omni character, the raiding Forsaken were composed entirely of raiders from a single class C guild (including at least one who didn't even bother to change the tag until after he was already actively attempting to gain FTE for Forsaken). This indicates that class C guild must ask for permission to drop to class R. Forsaken was a class C guild regardless of what tag they had decided to fly.




Your opinion is noted however the evidence presented against you is both valid and strong. I hope you will realize... eventually... that you are not the sole arbiter of what is valid or not. Anything else is just jamming your head in the sand.




Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

It is not whether or not BDA is capable of being in Class C, it is whether or not it unfairly dominates class R, which it does not.




Of course it serves a purpose, its the same purpose as putting the class system in place in the first place. If you don't agree with the class system, then you really have no standing to argue any of the particulars at all. In any event, the evidence presented that a daughter guild without any influx of outsiders is not a new guild is somewhere between very strong and overwhelming, and follows directly from something undeniable: what actually happened. Theorycrafted arguments tend to fall away at that point.

All you really have is "Rogean was wrong". Given the ruling, the burden of proof is on you to show how, and every element you've tried to bring up has met with overwhelming counterevidence. Or, to put another way, you've tried to show that Forsaken should be treated as a new entity but your argument is weak and unconvincing.

Get wrekt, Alarti. Third time in same thread.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Uggme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Alarti, we get it, you don't like the raid rules. You are trying to point out what you percieve is a flaw in them.

No ruleset is going to be 100% perfect. If you are actually able to formulate one then you've accomplished a miracle.

It's also clear you believe the staff favor and scorn various groups and that punishment is unjustly handed out. To that I have the following to say: deal with it. It's not your box.

Perhaps the people that are being punished here are deserving of the treatment they are getting. Perhaps they are not. However the staff has presented evidence regarding their decision and why they made the decision. It makes sense. Making up your own. Interpretation of the rules being enforced is a good way to disappoint yourself. You'll never win.

It's absolutely not my box. If the GM's wanted to RMT and play favorites or even give a group of friends special treatment I am 100% fine with it. As long as they don't lie about it.

I don't think I'm making up an interpretation of the rules. I think the rules are so unclear they allow so many interpretations. If they aren't clearly defined then how can you be expected to follow the rules? If rules aren't clearly defined should you be punished? Obviously it's their box. However, staff does state that they have goals to be fair an equitable.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It definitely does once the context of the players involved, regardless of the name above their head, is included. With the exception of one Omni character, the raiding Forsaken were composed entirely of raiders from a single class C guild (including at least one who didn't even bother to change the tag until after he was already actively attempting to gain FTE for Forsaken). This indicates that class C guild must ask for permission to drop to class R. Forsaken was a class C guild regardless of what tag they had decided to fly.


It doesn't. Q17 does not provide context. Saying it does is asinine or willful ignorance.

Your opinion is noted however the evidence presented against you is both valid and strong. I hope you will realize... eventually... that you are not the sole arbiter of what is valid or not. Anything else is just jamming your head in the sand.

Valid evidence is valid no matter the presenter. However could you dictate what evidence you think is valid?


Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

So you are saying class c equipped players with experience can't be a Class R guild. Seems like a ridiculous argument.

It is not whether or not BDA is capable of being in Class C, it is whether or not it unfairly dominates class R, which it does not.

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope


Of course it serves a purpose, its the same purpose as putting the class system in place in the first place. If you don't agree with the class system, then you really have no standing to argue any of the particulars at all. In any event, the evidence presented that a daughter guild without any influx of outsiders is not a new guild is somewhere between very strong and overwhelming, and follows directly from something undeniable: what actually happened. Theorycrafted arguments tend to fall away at that point.

Your entire argument is just theorycraft. The problem is you are calling a few of your assertions facts... and you don't realize they aren't facts they may be your opinions but you need to learn to recognize the difference.

All you really have is "Rogean was wrong". Given the ruling, the burden of proof is on you to show how, and every element you've tried to bring up has met with overwhelming counterevidence. Or, to put another way, you've tried to show that Forsaken should be treated as a new entity but your argument is weak and unconvincing.

You say overwhelming counter evidence. But that doesn't make it true. You realize this correct? You have overwhelming opinions not facts.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't. Q17 does not provide context. Saying it does is asinine or willful ignorance.

Valid evidence is valid no matter the presenter. However could you dictate what evidence you think is valid?

So you are saying class c equipped players with experience can't be a Class R guild. Seems like a ridiculous argument.

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

Your entire argument is just theorycraft. The problem is you are calling a few of your assertions facts... and you don't realize they aren't facts they may be your opinions but you need to learn to recognize the difference.

You say overwhelming counter evidence. But that doesn't make it true. You realize this correct? You have overwhelming opinions not facts.

^^^ Gets wrekt again. Basically pulls the Alarti "prove it" then calls it "opinion."

[Man0warr]

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

No one is saying Forsaken can't be Class R, including Rogean. Just that you have to wait 30 days (+2 week suspension).

[Mistle]

Why can't you quote properly suddenly? You didn't have any problem before?

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't. Q17 does not provide context. Saying it does is asinine or willful ignorance.

It's also the opposite of what I actually said, which was that with context provided, Q17 provides the basis for the correct call, from which the actual ruling followed from. Disagree or not, the line of reasoning is straightforward and clear.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Valid evidence is valid no matter the presenter. However could you dictate what evidence you think is valid?

Obviously I think all the evidence I've referred to so far is valid. As for your argument, I think the validity of your evidence is hit and miss. You have claimed analogies to the FE/BDA split but there are critical differences in the state of the rules from then to now as well as the actions of both guilds. You compared to a merge with another guild but there was no merge and basically all the members came from one place, so there are critical differences there as well. You claim different leadership, but the leader of Forsaken was also a leader in TMO. You claim no access to the guildbank, but we know there was some overlap. You claim DKP was wiped but there seems to be influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken DKP. Basically all the premises of your argument require twisting or spinning to make them into what you want to say. Meanwhile, the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you are saying class c equipped players with experience can't be a Class R guild. Seems like a ridiculous argument.

One of the benefits of being on the side that actually follows with what actually happened is the ability to laugh at and ignore statements like "seems like a ridiculous argument". As for what you posted, no, that's not what I said at all, and you probably know that, but strawmen are much easier to knock down, amirite? Class C players can of course be in a class R guild... but they can't all come from a single class C guild and have no players from a class R guild and suddenly call themselves a class R guild. Again, support: what actually happened. Tends to trump your theorycrafting. All you can say to rebut is "Rogean was wrong", but you can't prove how, just reiterate an opinion whose support has been dismissed.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false. Had it been considered a fair place for it to be, it would not have been removed, unless we fall back on your "Rogean was wrong" opinion which you need to support.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your entire argument is just theorycraft. The problem is you are calling a few of your assertions facts... and you don't realize they aren't facts they may be your opinions but you need to learn to recognize the difference.

My premises are all facts, not opinions. Opinion is you attempting to dismiss them as less valid than they are, such as claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership". I don't need to do that, "raid leader of TMO" is quite enough. That's just one example.

The argument made from my premises is my opinion, but unlike your theorycraft, it also matches what actually happened in practice. This is a pretty key point.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You say overwhelming counter evidence. But that doesn't make it true. You realize this correct? You have overwhelming opinions not facts.

Is it just my opinion that Forsaken is led by a raid leader of TMO? Is it just my opinion that the membership of Forsaken has all raided together before for a significant amount of time, under said raid leader? Is it just my opinion that there is no significant level of membership from outside TMO added into the mix? Is it just my opinion that the guild was comfortable enough in its relationship with TMO to use TMO tagged characters during the window? Is it just my opinion that the gear and common experience level of these raiders would give them a significant advantage over true class R guilds in any raid where that would matter?

Which one of those is just an opinion, Alarti?

Now, what IS my opinion: that the precedents you claimed don't hold much comparative value, that your feeling that this was like a merge doesn't hold much water when they didn't actually merge with anyone, and that your descriptions of the DKP, guild bank, and differences in leadership are grossly overstated. Completely on board with that. But alas even if I was completely wrong on all of those, it just isn't enough.