Hey Forsaken

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The punishment is for players of a class C guild killing a class R target, not for re-entering the guild afterwards.

As Rogean indicated, when essentially all the players are from a class C guild, they will continue to be considered class C even if they splinter off, so that situations like the one I put to you cannot happen. As Rogean said,



The example I gave simply serves to illustrate the problems of your interpretation of the rules.

I know this might be a crazy idea.. but have you ever considered the possibility that Rogean is fallible?

TMO did not reform into Forsaken. Forsaken members left TMO to pursue other interests. Somewhat like if they mass apped to another guild.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know this might be a crazy idea.. but have you ever considered the possibility that Rogean is fallible?

TMO did not reform into Forsaken. Forsaken members left TMO to pursue other interests. Somewhat like if they mass apped to another guild.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

The guild was not Class C is the point. The guild had cleared 0 targets at that point.

TMO is class C

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What Q17 does not say is that they can reform as a new guild and pretend like they're class R all of a sudden.

Asked and answered.

[Mistle]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know this might be a crazy idea.. but have you ever considered the possibility that Rogean is fallible?

Under that logic a guild could claim it is a new guild whenever they drop someone or add someone.

Essentially you are acknowledging that it is a judgement call, and as a situation that obviously doesn't come up very much that's entirely reasonable. I find Rogean's judgement of where the line does NOT stand to be very fair and logical. A set of people almost entirely from a single Class C guild using said Class C's raid leader as leader having at least partial access to said Class C's guild assets and actively engaging said Class C's guildmembers on its raids before switching their tags is a reasonable set of circumstances to declare the guild a class C guild attempting to evade the class restriction system. Simply assuming they got to be class R just because they have a new name reeks of "it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission", and the leaks from their forums indicated they knew it was risky and they should have clarified first if they didn't just feel like it was their God-given right as the uberest of the uberest to just shit on anyone they felt like (seriously, its typical of these guys to gloat at the idea of swiping a mob from BDA but what they did to Anonymous for a Maestro was beyond contemptable).

I find your definitions of where the line should be to be too open to abuse, as indicated by examples given in which you would allow the players of guilds to switch classes on a whim if they just remove the tag first, nothing else mattering.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TMO did not reform into Forsaken. Forsaken members left TMO to pursue other interests. Somewhat like if they mass apped to another guild.

Do you actually believe that the situation that happened and one in which they joined another guild in Class R are that similar?

If Rampage right now merged in Anonymous, do you think they should be free to go after Class R mobs?

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Under that logic a guild could claim it is a new guild whenever they drop someone or add someone.

Essentially you are acknowledging that it is a judgement call, and as a situation that obviously doesn't come up very much that's entirely reasonable. I find Rogean's judgement of where the line does NOT stand to be very fair and logical. A set of people almost entirely from a single Class C guild using said Class C's raid leader as leader having at least partial access to said Class C's guild assets and actively engaging said Class C's guildmembers on its raids before switching their tags is a reasonable set of circumstances to declare the guild a class C guild attempting to evade the class restriction system. Simply assuming they got to be class R just because they have a new name reeks of "it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission", and the leaks from their forums indicated they knew it was risky and they should have clarified

That is kind of the point.. the entire ruleset is arbitrary.
However, the guild is more than simply a new name. Its new officers, DKP, guild bank etc. Its similar to when FE split from BDA. FE was composed of primarily BDA members but they were obviously a new entity. Of course class system wasn't installed yet.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find your definitions of where the line should be to be too open to abuse, as indicated by examples given in which you would allow the players of guilds to switch classes on a whim if they just remove the tag first, nothing else mattering.

Abuse by whom? The point of the new raid rules was to promote server peace in a sense right, to cut down on petitions and staff work and to try to foster a healthy raid environment? You would think the people who "championed" that cause (Class R) would be more inclined to inclusiveness instead of exclusiveness.
I'd gladly take a few mob losses for inclusiveness and to keep suspensions low as much as possible.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you actually believe that the situation that happened and one in which they joined another guild in Class R are that similar?

Yep.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If Rampage right now merged in Anonymous, do you think they should be free to go after Class R mobs?

Yes

[Mistle]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is kind of the point.. the entire ruleset is arbitrary.
However, the guild is more than simply a new name. Its new officers, DKP, guild bank etc. Its similar to when FE split from BDA. FE was composed of primarily BDA members but they were obviously a new entity. Of course class system wasn't installed yet.

The server rules have matured since then. This is the first time I am aware of where a guild has truly split in two without any other guild's involvement since class system was implemented. Interpretation of Q17 strongly suggests that without precedent, the daughter guilds of a pure split (no significant influx of outside members) should be considered the same as their parent until they have permission otherwise since they are composed of PLAYERS that were class C. Now we have precedent to support it. It was using an old officer as leader, included DKP adjustments due to levels in the previous guild, and had at least partial access to guild assets. It was entirely reasonable to refuse to call them a new unaffiliated entity.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Abuse by whom? The point of the new raid rules was to promote server peace in a sense right, to cut down on petitions and staff work and to try to foster a healthy raid environment? You would think the people who "championed" that cause (Class R) would be more inclined to inclusiveness instead of exclusiveness.
I'd gladly take a few mob losses for inclusiveness and to keep suspensions low as much as possible.

Class R is pretty darn inclusive, actually. Guilds have made an effort to let Anonymous have shots at Maestro without interference, Indignation was congratulated for clearly winning their VS over BDA not villified, and you won't hear people admit it out loud but had there been a repop on the second outage last night Divinity, a guild most people seem to be regarding as virtually dead on the raid scene, probably would have gotten Trak. Class R is fulfilling its role as the "restricted" class, it's not being dominated by anyone.

But that works because Class R welcomes people coming up into it, not guilds jumping down from above. These smaller guilds trying to stay independent are trying to prove they can do it on their own. What would Forsaken have to prove? VP geared tanks, clerics, and DPS following a raid leader they have followed for years can handle Maestro and Sev? Would anyone actually buy that? Their own forums lend the lie to that.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yep.

Yes

Well obviously we wouldn't agree so let me put it a different way: regardless of your opinion on what you think is the BETTER solution, do you understand and agree that Rogean's reasoning for his ruling is valid? Do you accept that there is valid reasons to believe a daughter guild shouldn't be treated as an entirely new guild?

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well obviously we wouldn't agree so let me put it a different way: regardless of your opinion on what you think is the BETTER solution, do you understand and agree that Rogean's reasoning for his ruling is valid? Do you accept that there is valid reasons to believe a daughter guild shouldn't be treated as an entirely new guild?

Protip: don't ever ask for Alarti's opinion. He's going to use it as an open invitation to completely ignore the question and rephrase it and morph it until the question gives him a self-declared victory on conditions he sets and paint you wrong and TMO as an untouchable entity filled with god-status players.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interpretation of Q17 strongly suggests that without precedent, the daughter guilds of a pure split (no significant influx of outside members) should be considered the same as their parent until they have permission otherwise since they are composed of PLAYERS that were class C.

No it doesn't strongly suggest that at all. You must agree that it doesn't strongly suggest anything regarding the situation.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now we have precedent to support it. It was using an old officer as leader, included DKP adjustments due to levels in the previous guild, and had at least partial access to guild assets. It was entirely reasonable to refuse to call them a new unaffiliated entity.

Nope not reasonable. Cherry picking data.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that works because Class R welcomes people coming up into it, not guilds jumping down from above. These smaller guilds trying to stay independent are trying to prove they can do it on their own. What would Forsaken have to prove? VP geared tanks, clerics, and DPS following a raid leader they have followed for years can handle Maestro and Sev? Would anyone actually buy that? Their own forums lend the lie to that.

What does any guild have to prove? Why does Forsaken have specialized expectations? BDA has been killing Sev Maestro etc for years. BDA is allowed to be Class R.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well obviously we wouldn't agree so let me put it a different way: regardless of your opinion on what you think is the BETTER solution, do you understand and agree that Rogean's reasoning for his ruling is valid? Do you accept that there is valid reasons to believe a daughter guild shouldn't be treated as an entirely new guild?

Nope. I think its a better position to allow a new guild who fractured to decide its path. The judgement was an extra unneeded social control that serves no real purpose.

[Uggme]

Alarti, we get it, you don't like the raid rules. You are trying to point out what you percieve is a flaw in them.

No ruleset is going to be 100% perfect. If you are actually able to formulate one then you've accomplished a miracle.

It's also clear you believe the staff favor and scorn various groups and that punishment is unjustly handed out. To that I have the following to say: deal with it. It's not your box.

Perhaps the people that are being punished here are deserving of the treatment they are getting. Perhaps they are not. However the staff has presented evidence regarding their decision and why they made the decision. It makes sense. Making up your own. Interpretation of the rules being enforced is a good way to disappoint yourself. You'll never win.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What does any guild have to prove? Why does Forsaken have specialized expectations? BDA has been killing Sev Maestro etc for years. BDA is allowed to be Class R.

It's funny that you bring them into this. BDA has taken a class C cooldown. Has Foreskin?

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Uggme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You'll never win.

Won't stop him from posting essays. I'm not sure who he's trying to convince, though. One key aspect regarding communication is to know your audience. I'm seriously confused about who his audience is any more. And I'm fairly certain he doesn't know, either.