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  #31  
Old 01-04-2013, 11:05 PM
Smilkers Smilkers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Hence why I came up with my idea for a server-wide all out poopsock alliance against TMO until something changes.
Shaere thought of this first, do you remember "no truce with the shadow"?
and he was laughed off the server.
I like you Tassel, but really?
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  #32  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:00 AM
YendorLootmonkey YendorLootmonkey is offline
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How can we compete when the rules keep changing?

FACT: The raid rules are here. Effective July 2012.

FACT: In order to compete on this server within the given ruleset, you have to know the rules.

FACT: We are now being told that some encounters are first to damage, which is contradictory to the posted raid rules.

So if we don't know the rules, how is anyone supposed to compete on this server?

Please update the raid rules if there are different rules for different encounters so we can adapt accordingly and compete on a level playing field. Otherwise, please be consistent with the raid rules and rulings in accordance with the raid rules. Again, no one is saying TMO didn't have FTE... the logs clearly show that. We're concerned about "what rules are in effect on a particular mob so we can best position ourselves to compete for ownership of the kill?"

It's like playing a game of football and the refs deciding amongst themselves whether they're playing by college or NFL rules, and not telling you until the yellow flag is thrown and the penalty is assessed, and then potentially changing which rules they're going by before each play.
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  #33  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:28 AM
Eccezan Eccezan is offline
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Haven't read the walls of text in this thread, but it seems that Metallicass is still an annoying piece of shit. amirite? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
  #34  
Old 01-05-2013, 01:21 AM
TWDL_Prexus TWDL_Prexus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eccezan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Haven't read the walls of text in this thread, but it seems that Metallicass is still an annoying piece of shit. amirite? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Pretty much TMO in a nutshell, for all those new to the server.
  #35  
Old 01-05-2013, 01:24 AM
Autotune Autotune is offline
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well there goes eye pulling?
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Originally Posted by Sirken
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:06 AM
Enygma Enygma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Sirken announced TMO had FTE and loot rights to Inny. The logs showed crazyeyes as first to agro on the encounter log. That would obviously be enough to satisfy the raiders as FTE has been the rule. But afterwards Sirken joins guildchat and makes claims to counter his ruling by saying Inny is not first to agro but rather first to damage? What is up with that? Does anyone know the actual rules to raiding anymore?

logs of Sirken in guild chat trying to explain the FTE ruling for 1/4/3 Inny kill:

[Fri Jan 04 20:54:24 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'GM Sirken here'
[Fri Jan 04 20:54:40 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'I dont want to explain the same things 100x, so here goes'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:02 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Different mobs = different situations'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:23 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'People pull inny to ent. whereas every sits on trak spawn spot for ft '
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:38 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'So thats why dam is required for inny and not trak'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:58 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Theres no conspiracy, its common sense based on what we can see in the logs'
Metallikus crying since 1999.
  #37  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:07 AM
Enygma Enygma is offline
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Crazyeyes King of FTE?
  #38  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:28 AM
Handull Handull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
people plop 150 on trak spawn spot, there is no pull. it is an absolutely instant engage and kill.
this only happens when Trak goes into the last 4 or so hours of his window. otherwise it comes down to which guild gets 'enough' toons to log in first, trains away the juggs, and charges Trak.

It sounds like Sirken is trying to avoid the following scenarios (which are pretty much exactly the same):
1) GuildA is ready to pull Inny. GuildB has a monk strategically positioned who tags Inny right before GuildA pulls him. Technically GuildB has FTE, but GuildB was not seriously trying to pull him, only trying to unfairly snipe FTE.
2) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB sees GuildA is about to engage Trak, so GuildB has a monk tag him, sniping FTE, even though GuildB wasn't ready to engage Trak at the time.

Obviously, if you know the honest to god truth about what the puller/tagger/sniper was thinking, you'll know who is entitled to the loot rights. But you'll never know that unless the person with FTE is stupid and yells it out in /shout or in a /tell to brag.

The problem comes not in these clear cut scenarios (those being either one guild is simply trying to snipe FTE which is akin to rules lawyering or 150 are on the spawn, which can happen with any/every mob, and it simply comes down to random chance on FTE), but rather with the in-between scenarios:

3) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB may or may not have enough force to engage Trak, but they see GuildA is ready, so their hand is forced and they are willing to risk wiping for FTE. GuildB charges Trak at the same time as GuildA. Both guilds share in the killing of the mob, and loot rights are traditionally determined by which guild had FTE aka first agro. GuildB had first on agro list FTE and GuildB's FTE toon did damage to Trak, but its unclear if GuildB could have killed Trak if it weren't for GuildA also being on the mob.

4) GuildA and GuildB are both trying to pull Inny, most likely at the same time. GuildA gets first on agro list FTE but GuildB is also ready for the pull and has the puller hit the mob before running to the camp. Did GuildB just 'legally' pull-steal the mob from GuildA?

5) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a full force is waiting. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because no damage was done to Fay?

6) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a few guildies are waiting, and the hope is that enough will log in and/or zone in before Fay gets to the camp. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because its not even known if GuildA could have killed Fay and because no damage was done?

7) GuildA is stall-tanking VS with a chain of toons using DA-idols, voidance/riposte discs, etc. GuildA maintains at least one toon on VS's agro list at all times (ie he never resets), but GuildB has a full force in zone to kill VS. Can GuildB now pull VS off the GuildA tanks since GuildB is ready to take down the mob and GuildA is still waiting for more people to log in? Here we have GuildA doing damage to the mob, but only negligible damage compared to VS's total HP.

I didn't mean for this to get so long, but there are so many scenarios to consider and each one can be rule lawyered in its own way. I think the best course of action is to keep the rules simple (first on agro list = FTE = loot rights), but allow the GMs to make rulings otherwise either based on what they saw if they were there or based on something obvious, like GuildA had FTE, but only had 5 toons in zone through the whole fight against Trak. Let the guilds work it out for those ambiguous situations. If GuildA is ready for Trak and sees GuildB charge with 20 people, maybe they should sit back and hope GuildB wipes rather than trying to charge in along side them, assuring the mob dies, and leaving it up to who was lucky/skillful enough to nab FTE.

The only real change I would like to see is that when a quest item drops from a raid mob (VS stone, Trak tooth, etc), GuildA loots it, and then GuildA quickly turns it in, then GuildB is awarded loot rights, I would like to see GuildA lose the quest reward they got and get back the other quest items that they had gotten legitimately. It seems unfair that GuildA gets part of the benefit of the kill permanently, even though GuildB is also given the quest items they are entitled to. If people wised up and coordinated their efforts, we could abuse this and double the number of quest drops that raid mobs have [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd also like to see Fay drop his pod. 0/4 in a row dry spell is killing me :P
  #39  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:34 AM
Handull Handull is offline
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PS i tried to keep my post civil. honestly i'm not sure why GMs even both responding in public posts around here. whatever they say is taken like some infallible gospel and people jump at the chance to prove them wrong. just wanted to add that bit, and I trust the GMs can ignore the trolls/fools and just think about all this logically.
  #40  
Old 01-05-2013, 03:52 AM
Sirken Sirken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
this only happens when Trak goes into the last 4 or so hours of his window. otherwise it comes down to which guild gets 'enough' toons to log in first, trains away the juggs, and charges Trak.

It sounds like Sirken is trying to avoid the following scenarios (which are pretty much exactly the same):
1) GuildA is ready to pull Inny. GuildB has a monk strategically positioned who tags Inny right before GuildA pulls him. Technically GuildB has FTE, but GuildB was not seriously trying to pull him, only trying to unfairly snipe FTE.
2) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB sees GuildA is about to engage Trak, so GuildB has a monk tag him, sniping FTE, even though GuildB wasn't ready to engage Trak at the time.

Obviously, if you know the honest to god truth about what the puller/tagger/sniper was thinking, you'll know who is entitled to the loot rights. But you'll never know that unless the person with FTE is stupid and yells it out in /shout or in a /tell to brag.

The problem comes not in these clear cut scenarios (those being either one guild is simply trying to snipe FTE which is akin to rules lawyering or 150 are on the spawn, which can happen with any/every mob, and it simply comes down to random chance on FTE), but rather with the in-between scenarios:

3) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB may or may not have enough force to engage Trak, but they see GuildA is ready, so their hand is forced and they are willing to risk wiping for FTE. GuildB charges Trak at the same time as GuildA. Both guilds share in the killing of the mob, and loot rights are traditionally determined by which guild had FTE aka first agro. GuildB had first on agro list FTE and GuildB's FTE toon did damage to Trak, but its unclear if GuildB could have killed Trak if it weren't for GuildA also being on the mob.

4) GuildA and GuildB are both trying to pull Inny, most likely at the same time. GuildA gets first on agro list FTE but GuildB is also ready for the pull and has the puller hit the mob before running to the camp. Did GuildB just 'legally' pull-steal the mob from GuildA?

5) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a full force is waiting. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because no damage was done to Fay?

6) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a few guildies are waiting, and the hope is that enough will log in and/or zone in before Fay gets to the camp. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because its not even known if GuildA could have killed Fay and because no damage was done?

7) GuildA is stall-tanking VS with a chain of toons using DA-idols, voidance/riposte discs, etc. GuildA maintains at least one toon on VS's agro list at all times (ie he never resets), but GuildB has a full force in zone to kill VS. Can GuildB now pull VS off the GuildA tanks since GuildB is ready to take down the mob and GuildA is still waiting for more people to log in? Here we have GuildA doing damage to the mob, but only negligible damage compared to VS's total HP.

I didn't mean for this to get so long, but there are so many scenarios to consider and each one can be rule lawyered in its own way. I think the best course of action is to keep the rules simple (first on agro list = FTE = loot rights), but allow the GMs to make rulings otherwise either based on what they saw if they were there or based on something obvious, like GuildA had FTE, but only had 5 toons in zone through the whole fight against Trak. Let the guilds work it out for those ambiguous situations. If GuildA is ready for Trak and sees GuildB charge with 20 people, maybe they should sit back and hope GuildB wipes rather than trying to charge in along side them, assuring the mob dies, and leaving it up to who was lucky/skillful enough to nab FTE.

The only real change I would like to see is that when a quest item drops from a raid mob (VS stone, Trak tooth, etc), GuildA loots it, and then GuildA quickly turns it in, then GuildB is awarded loot rights, I would like to see GuildA lose the quest reward they got and get back the other quest items that they had gotten legitimately. It seems unfair that GuildA gets part of the benefit of the kill permanently, even though GuildB is also given the quest items they are entitled to. If people wised up and coordinated their efforts, we could abuse this and double the number of quest drops that raid mobs have [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd also like to see Fay drop his pod. 0/4 in a row dry spell is killing me :P
thank you for taking the time to make a well written, well thought out post.

the problem is, most of these kids want concrete black and white rules for the entire raid scene so that they can start preparing how to find loopholes in the wording, and get their legal team of rule lawyers on the case. sadly for them thats not going to happen.

the only reason i do the loots the way i do is because 1) its easier, and 2) i dont like punishing people because i was not there right away/or they had to wait. but ill talk to Ephi for an outside opinion, and see what he thinks about that as well.
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Quote:
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Accusing me of simultaneous favoritism for two opposing guilds involves a special kind of stupid
Quote:
Originally Posted by karsten View Post
going after sirken is like going to a cheerleader convention and punching the only one that bothered to talk to you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogean View Post
I've met Sirken IRL.. he ain't jelly of shit

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