Where did WoW go right?

[Breeziyo]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When WoW came out, it's immediate competition was EQ2. I still can't play EQ2 on max settings.

Yeah, what the hell is up with that? I've got a pretty current machine and it still struggles, but usually only if I decide to turn the shadows on.

[choklo]

Some things that stuck out about early EQ that were fixed in WoW:
1) Embedded time sinks. The long cast times, mana regen, health regen etc.
2) Corpse runs. Most didn't want to spend hours doing this with no reward or fun.
3)Huge wait times setting up raids or groups- (i.e. "need cleric and CC for king group.")
4) Huge wait times for rare spawns and rare drops
5) PvP as an after thought.
6) Having to put your life on hold to be a "real" player
7) Unbalanced classes. I was an ogre sk and regretted it for several years.
It's clear that WoW turned EQ's weak points into strong points for WoW. EQ is fairly Masochistic.

[Danth]

I haven't read the entire thread. I quit Everquest well before Warcraft launched. As such I don't consider these games direct competitors. They occupied different eras of my own gaming history.

Warcraft maintained its dominance largely due to two factors. First, it achieved a sort of self-sustaining critical mass of players. It drew in a lot of folks who aren't really gamers at all and who don't really give other games any consideration. Second, even more importantly, Warcraft has been blessed with consistently weak competition. Warcraft exists as a tolerably well-made game in a genre full of rubbish.

For my part, I enjoyed Warcraft during 2004 and in to 2005, before Blizzard ruined the level 60 instances by making them too easy, then again during the first expansion. I haven't enjoyed it since then and haven't subscribed since early 2009.

Project1999 is my lifeboat. Without this emulatorI'd be out of the MMOG hobby entirely.

Danth

[tops419]

I agree with the poster above. WoW was MUCH more complex (as far as raiding goes) than EQ.
I think the reason so many people play P1999, is you get a chance to be something you could have never been in the same era. The top 5 or 10% in EQ used to have everything: the COF's, Epics, God lewt, etc.
Now 90% have it and it's actually kinda wierd to see a character sporting level appropriate gear( a caster with a flowing black robe, a melee with banded, etc)

I think once most folks reach 60 and get all the phat lewts here, the motivation to keep playing is pretty much gone. I know it is for me.
Somehow, WoW battlegrounds and PVP (especially on the classic servers) are still just as much fun as they ever were.
The problem with current WoW/EQ is that with every new expansion (or update, in the case of WoW) the gear gets more and more outrageous and the carrot on the stick gets further and further away. If I invest all my time, I want to be able to say I have the BIS or near for a few months, at a minimum.
That's probably why Kunark and Velious, collectively, were such good expansions. Velious didn't make all of Kunark obsolete.
The Burning Crusade didn't make all of WoW obsolete (maybe the high end gear), but you still spent ample time in Vanilla zones.

[choklo]

Eventually you have to get off the treadmill. Work, a spouse, kids, friends, other interests, become more important than a video game. After you have spent hundreds of hours getting the best gear and spells, the next expansion starts the cycle over again. Eventually you get tired of the endless cycles of loot inflation(mudflation) and other things become more important.

[Roth]

Originally Posted by choklo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eventually you have to get off the treadmill. Work, a spouse, kids, friends, other interests, become more important than a video game. After you have spent hundreds of hours getting the best gear and spells, the next expansion starts the cycle over again. Eventually you get tired of the endless cycles of loot inflation(mudflation) and other things become more important.

I feel like I need to address this entire point, in regards to wow. The biggest reason I quit wow is because since halfway through wotlk(the downfall) two things happened: cross server instances, and patch gear resets. By a reset I mean every time a new raid patch comes out they basically have an easier raid instance than the ones you just did on heroic mode that hand out better gear. The point of this is so that everyone keeps moving forward and no one gets left behind.

Basically on wow right now EVERYONE gets gear. This sucks. It sucks because it makes you feel like there's no point playing. I only played for the raids anyhow, but the whole pushing people along so they can do more content feels too artificial once you realize whats going on. Wow was decent till halfway through wotlk. When gear reset every expansion and instances werent cross server, it was fine. Current game is unplayable becasue there's no server community and no meaningful reward for doing anything.

To address initial point, wow was popular simply because it was easy to "keep playing". The gameplay is hard, but the game is set up so that it's impossible to quit to frustration. I subbed to wow 6 years, played eq on and off for much short months. Still loved eq more though. Wow was less addicting(and less special) but set up so that there was no reason to want to quit.

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by tops419 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with the poster above. WoW was MUCH more complex (as far as raiding goes) than EQ.
I think the reason so many people play P1999, is you get a chance to be something you could have never been in the same era. The top 5 or 10% in EQ used to have everything: the COF's, Epics, God lewt, etc.
Now 90% have it and it's actually kinda wierd to see a character sporting level appropriate gear( a caster with a flowing black robe, a melee with banded, etc)

Disagree with this. When WoW released it was pretty cut and dry just like EQ was. It wasn't like WoW released with all kinds of awesome raid content. I remember getting to max level and not having much to do when it released.

As I stated before...a lot of this WoW talk is due to the progression of MMO based games, not so much WoW in itself. EQ started getting some pretty tricky and sick raids along the way also. Doesn't mean it was necessarily better at any certain point in time.

I remember playing Anarchy Online which I do believe released before WoW. Had a ton of cool features. Links, item mods, etc. It was basically a flop of a game. Lot of those features later found their way into EQ and WoW.

Just because you seen it first in WoW doesn't mean it was the first to pioneer something.

[Houdiny]

Well if you will read the context in which things were written it might help. He said WoW raiding was much more complex than EQ. Simply not true. I can think of a ton of intense raids that I personally did in EQ. Not just tank and spank. Sure as a healer your job is going to be boring. You have the same job in every raid in every game...keep the tank alive lol of course your going to be bored. It's part of it. Buck up soldier.

Raids in EQ such as Rathe Council, Xegony, all kinds of GoD encounters, Vishimtar, Queen Sendaii, Hatchet, Mayong Mistmoore, 2 or 3 others in DoDH, Porthio, Any number of fights in Solteris, I can go on and on and on about encounters that have MANY things going on.

My entire point is he was comparing WoW and all its glory to 2 expansions of Everquest. 2 Expansions that are essentially the beginning of MMO's when encounters weren't complex in any game. That's what I'm trying to get across. By the time WoW had all those nifty raids EQ had them too.

GoD I considered mild raiding and it was considered the guild breaker of expansions. Many guilds folded and quit trying to get through GoD. What he is comparing is apples to oranges not apples to apples

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by square [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I shouldn't have to decipher the "context" (lol) on an online forum, be clear instead, because you simply look like a hater. Healing in WoW is by far more complex than EQ ever was, same with melee, same with casters. I'd rather smash buttons for a rotation any day than hit auto attack and watch a fight for an hour. I asked you to "go on and on" about those raids, you didn't. So please do. The most I remember from them was occasional AOE and fears which weren't even very common to begin with.

I also never said I was bored, part of the reason I play on P1999 is the ability to multi-task while playing (sometimes). Other games you actually need to be active 99% of the time. There's no debate about complexity, you're letting your nostalgia goggles blind you, or you simply lied about ever playing WoW. See the part I bolded? You mentioned how encounters weren't complex. WoW (and some other games honestly) made more complex encounters, that would be an improvement, aka Where WoW went right! GEE WIZ!

Lets compare 2 expansions of WoW to 2 expansions of EQ then...would that be fair? Its not about comparison in that sense really. If you'd take a moment to stop foaming at the mouth with hate, you'd see the thread title. We were talking about improvements made from all MMOs not just EQ either. If you think live EQ has nearly the complexity of raids compared to even just the burning crusade expansion of WoW, you simply didn't play.

You're also still trying to make the point that "OMG EQ HAD THIS STUFF THE SAME TIME WOW DID!" No one here is saying WoW was the first MMO to come up with everything, yet you seem to look for anything possible to defend EQ and bash WoW for no good reason.

We're on a classic EQ forum for god's sake. We're all here for a reason, you don't need to put up a shield and defend your beloved game. You're allowed to enjoy more than one game, you're allowed to hate some, but this topic was never about bashing WoW, but people like you always feel the need to hate on what is/was popular. I bet you still use your zach morris cell phone too since APPLE AND IPHONES SUCK RARAHRAHRAHH. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

QFT <3

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by square [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I shouldn't have to decipher the "context" (lol) on an online forum, be clear instead, because you simply look like a hater. Healing in WoW is by far more complex than EQ ever was, same with melee, same with casters. I'd rather smash buttons for a rotation any day than hit auto attack and watch a fight for an hour. I asked you to "go on and on" about those raids, you didn't. So please do. The most I remember from them was occasional AOE and fears which weren't even very common to begin with.

Lets compare 2 expansions of WoW to 2 expansions of EQ then...would that be fair? Its not about comparison in that sense really. If you'd take a moment to stop foaming at the mouth with hate, you'd see the thread title. We were talking about improvements made from all MMOs not just EQ either. If you think live EQ has nearly the complexity of raids compared to even just the burning crusade expansion of WoW, you simply didn't play.

I am not a WoW hater. I played the game for awhile, didn't appeal to me. It's not that I didn't like it I just don't care for easy mode and welfare epics that's all.

You're still not getting it. You want to compare EQ's first two expansions to WoW's first two expansions but again it is apples and oranges all over again. Considering WoW's release alone was later, and WoW's first two expansions were simply later than EQ's first two. I am not absolutely sure when WoW released and what stages EQ was on when it did. It's been too many years. But given the fact that WoW was released quite some time AFTER EQ, it is a given that the first two expansions in WoW are going to be more detailed, simply because of technology and the push in the MMO industry at that time. That's all I'm saying.

As for going into details on EQ raids I will start with Rathe Council, 12 mobs, all having to die within a certain short time frame. 6 mezzable and 6 had to be OT'd, for hours while pulling and setting up was being done.

Vishimtar fight. Zonewide single target periodic death touch that you had to interact with an NPC to have cleared, adds spawning every certain percentage that had to be OT'd (5 or 6 all together I think) egg sacks that had to be killed immediately or else it would wipe raid, adds that hit like a freight train everyone time one person would miss a click or DT or simply died. Zonewide periodic AE dmg. All the while positioning a very large dragon so your raid does not get frontal. And a tail swipe.

Uqua in GoD fight- Nasty DoT on zone in reducing all your stats by 250, having to wield weapon drops in this zone to avoid AE, uncureable reoccuring every minute and a half, a wrong click inside the gas chamber basically wipes your entire raid with a barrage of AE's. every 20 seconds an emote where you have to open a certain door with one of four keys that are on the table. Killing 4 constructs to spawn two named that you have to split raid force on and kill within 30 minutes of initial pop. Among other encounters taking many hours to get through all to receive a flag...

Queen Sendaii- 4 waves, wave 1 and 2 are just adds, not many. Wave 3 spawns 6 adds that split into 12 more adds that split into 3 more each, somewhere around 36 adds or better, all having to be killed in a specific order to avoid being overwhelmed. All the while Queen is moving around her hive AE'ing an 11,000 damage spell which is basically instant death at this point. Then once you have all the adds down you engage the Queen and every 25% she splits into 4 copies, have to find and take down the "right one" to 50% for the other adds to despawn, and finally at 25% 35-40 adds spawn at once and you AE mez, and pray you kill her in time. And all waves are timed and you have to hurry.

These are just a few examples along the way. Almost every encounter in Tacvi, Seat of the Slayer was an obstacle course.This is not even getting into detail of any raids past DoDh expansion. The Queen Sendaii fight was just a flag fight to get into the main raid zone in DoDh. There was worse inside the demiplane. And this is not even in great detail about the fights. There was more involved then what I explained. I just don't see the sense in rambling on about it.

You guys criticize me for not playing through WoW long enough to get the beef of it, and I can understand that. But obviously not everyone here played EQ through it's entirety either. Both games had a lot to offer.