Where did EQ Live go wrong?

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by lawll [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People only stuck with EQ because nothing was remotely close at the time. The mass exodus after wow came out pretty much says thats what the players wanted in a mmo game.

Not sure I agree with this entirely. I think WoW released at the best possible time and had some things go it's way to become what it is. Couple of things I think affected it that weren't necessarily because of EQ.

WoW released at a time when people had devoted more time to EQ than most generally any other game they had ever played. At first EQ was new to them, and they played it religiously. Then came along something new. Much like DAoC it took a lot of EQ players initially. The thing WoW had was a niche market. The casual gamer. A lot of people simply did not have the time to devote that EQ requires. So they played WoW because they could accomplish a lot more for their time invested.

And once the ball got rolling so many people started playing WoW that everyone else fell in line and played it because that is where everyone was at. If you can play a game with several of your friends opposed to a game you couldn't your going to choose the game where all your friends are.

There was no doubt WoW had some very intriguing features and things that other MMO's didn't. But it didn't take long for every MMO to copy and paste all the features that people liked. So it wasn't so much the features that kept people playing. It was an easy playing environment, with a vast subscription base, and most of all it didn't require a monster of a computer to run (not that EQ did) but other games released after WoW were graphics intense and had several issues. With WoW you could basically go out and buy a Wal Mart machine and run it fairly well.

I think there was many things that added to WoW's success. I refer too it as "the perfect storm". As a game, the lore isn't all that great, graphics are sub par, and gameplay is average at best. I tried it a couple of different times because all my friends were playing it. But it didn't take me long to get burnt out on it. The recurring theme was people left the game and you knew they were going to be back.

Another variable I think plays into it is the fact that many people started playing WoW because the MMO industry had gotten so big. And there was so many people playing it that for many WoW was their first MMO experience. And we all know how that first experience feels. It's hard to let go. I remember playing Counterstrike and the guys in my clan disappeared to play WoW. A kind of game they had never even tried. They mostly played FPS's It was amazing to me at the people who were actually playing the game.

But as I said once you have 3 or 4 million subs everybody you know is playing it and it's "the place to be"

[kaev]

Originally Posted by lawll [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People only stuck with EQ because nothing was remotely close at the time. The mass exodus after wow came out pretty much says thats what the players wanted in a mmo game.

_Some_ people, not all. There's no denying that WoW had (and has) a much broader appeal than EQ, but broad != universal. AFAICT, a fair few of players who abandoned EQ when the game became unrecognizable to them, never played WoW or did not stick with it if they did (the former is my experience.) But it's not correct to generalize that either.

But, as I said in my earlier post, it's the players who really changed the game, Verant/SOE just went along with the crowd. It wasn't Verant/SOE that created thousands and thousands of Gnome Necromancers when some website pronounced that the "best" race/class option. It wasn't Verant/SOE that filled the planes with PUGs full of shit-talking loot whores in the weeks/months leading up to Kunark. Just as it isn't the P99 staff that filled this server with stupid numbers of solo-kiting Bards and ridiculously over-geared Monk twinks.

You want to know where EQ Live went wrong? Look in the mirror.

[raptorak]

I think EQ went wrong when they made the melee classes - they suck balls and melee combat is no fun at all, and the warrior class has to be the most boring implementation of a warrior in any game I have ever played. You only have to play WoW for 5 minutes as a warrior/rogue to see that the melee system is far more dynamic and interesting, and for that WoW killed Everquest.

Want to have fun as a melee you better roll a hybrid - OH WAIT - 40% exp penalty in a game with ridiculously slow levelling.

A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit a decaying skeleton, but miss!
A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit a decaying skeleton, but miss!
A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit a decaying skeleton, but miss!
A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit a decaying skeleton, but miss!
A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You slash a decaying skeleton for 1 point of damage!
A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You are unconscious!
A decaying skeleton hits you for 2 points of damage!
You have been slain by a decaying skeleton!

It is a shame really, because the casting classes in this game are awesome as is the whole world, most of the Classic zones and atmosphere.

[Atmas]

Historically when asked this question I had answers similar to other people:Complaints such as the addition of PoK which made travel trivial. Adding GoD which "streamlined" raid content, actually just making it boring cut and paste content. Or just going past PoP which was an epic storyline where you killed the gods, a good finish. Some people didn't like Luclin because going to the moon broke their opinion of the fantasy motif.

But the truth is that it was an inevitability.

At any point you add new content it either is on par with old content gains giving you a sense of new encounter but no stat gain or it gives you stat gain thus eventually trivalizing the importance of old content. The thing is neither of these are sustainable, as eventually with the former you grow tired off the repetitve re-hashing of new encounters for no progression or with the later the feeling that you are just doing tier after tier for a systematic x% increase in stats to do new content.

Take a thing like AAs, some people (myself included) loved them because you had an oppurtunity to increase your characters power, others hated that it was just forced added objectives for progression. Much like other forms of Artwork whenever something is added it polarizes people.

Velious was a great expansion but you couldn't do another 5 expansions on similar premises of progression. Some people seem to feel like the game would keep going indefinitely if no content was added. I think the turnover rate and impending soaring numbers and eventual decline with the launch of Velious will be a testament to the fact that you are basically damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[medievalerror]

I must say, I liked the Vah Shir and absolutely LOVED the Luclin graphics (I immediately switched to Iksar on Live in part because of how much I loved their new look in particular--I cannot bring myself to play one in the original graphics b/c the aesthetic is such a downer for me). I do think that many of the Luclin zones began taking a radical turn that represented a downward slope in EQ. (If only we had the option of using Luclin graphics on P-99 it would be perfection!).

[Daldaen]

What crack dealers are you talking about? Bazaar was a nice idea, implemented poorly. Having to leave your character on afk was stupid. But it would've been great if you could set it up to do that without your character being there.

Mercs were an addition to SoD, around 2008-2009 iirc... way past the scope of the Luclin discussion but I guess that could qualify for when EQ live when wrong.

[medievalerror]

We need not only discuss Luclin, it just seems to me that for a lot of people that's where things really started to change.

[mwatt]

There is no single reason, it is a combination of things. My own vote for the biggest issue was the disparity in gear and power between two "types" of players that occurred due to "forced" raiding and keying that later expansions brought on. As new expansions came out, they had to be tuned to those with the powerful gear, leaving "casual" players unable to effectively play. Unfortunately, the players that tended to be able to gather power need to play as expansions kept getting more difficult, are also players that tend to burn through content and then leave.

On a somewhat different topic, I thought AAs were great.

[astuce999]

The biggest mistake that caused the decline of EQ was implementing characteristics that diminished the need for a community; the need to rely on (or compete with) other people.

People will point to PoK books or Bazaar or instances or mercs or guild hall or certain AA's (among others) as the scapegoats; the common denominator is that it all took away from the immersion that gave EQ its unique feel, which is having to interact with other players.

'Stuce

[Edrick]

Two biggest complaints I have about how EQ Live went wrong.

First is the progression. This hit really hard at Planes of Power. There was a very harsh progression that you could not deviate from, your only way to get into raids you weren't flagged for was to fall into the 85/15 rule. Everquest's biggest strength during classic, Kunark, and Velious was that it wasn't so linear. All you needed to get into Veeshan's Peak was the key. The key was a long, difficult quest, but most of it you could do on your own. In Velious, to get into Sleeper's Tomb you needed a key you could get from killing dragons or certain giants. If Velious was remade today, you would have to complete 6 tasks in Iceclad Ocean to get access to eastern wastes, then complete another quest chain to choose which faction you want, then complete a number of instanced raids to work you way up.

The other is mudflation. This wasn't a problem during classic, Kunark, and Velious, because all stats mattered. Once we got to Planes of Power, you didn't have to worry about making sure you got enough of a certain stat, since eventually all of your equipment will have maxed them out. Items were losing their "individuality" and just becoming something with every single stat vomited onto it.