Multi-classing? EQ Legends - What to try?

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From watching the streams, one of the biggest changes that is glossed over is the out-of-combat health/mana/stamina regen. It looks as if your character will regen 4% of each per tick, so with just one minute of downtime you regen a full 40% of each. And since you don't have to sit to med, your "downtime" can be running around looking for other mobs. This has huge implications, as it turns a lot of the classic EQ XPing meta on its head.

Traditionally, XPing is all about prioritizing efficiency over a long session to get more kills per hour. Mana and health regen were always the bottleneck of how many mobs you could kill, and thus how much XP you could get. So spells like Lich, Clarity, Chloro were very powerful, along with Bard regen songs, and items like the Fungi Tunic. But when you have massive out-of-combat health/mana regen, those things are much less impactful. Instead, what matters a lot more is in-combat burst damage. If you can kill mobs very quickly, you can then resume your enhanced out-of-combat regen before doing it again. For this reason I think Mages will be one of the strongest classes, due to their unique combination of burst and sustained DPS. Wizards I also expect will be considerably better than in classic (read: actually viable for XP outside of quadding), especially if they give them some sort of special nuking stance, which seems likely.

It also looks like the difficulty of the mobs is much, much easier than classic EQ, even on the highest difficulty setting. The devs were running around Befallen at level 5-10 and easily killing mobs 5+ levels higher than them in newbie gear. It really seems like they are going for a very "inclusive" experience in this regard, meaning that you can play just about any class combination and find success. There won't be much of a need to min/max unless you want to solo on the highest difficulty level. Even then, it doesn't seem like it will be as difficult as P99 solo. For example, I think a lot of people are going to roll Enchanters thinking that charm will be necessary, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. In fact, it will probably end up being more trouble than it's worth in most cases.

Also, with no XP loss on death and respawning at the zone entrance, death itself loses almost all of its sting. This seriously devalues the entire Feign Death spell/ability, which is another huge change from classic. Pulling also seems much less important, and most people will probably be crawling through dungeons rather than camping certain areas.

It doesn't look like an ideal class meta for grouping/raiding will even develop, simply because there doesn't seem to be much of a need for it. Maybe the raiding will be substantially more difficult (I hope so), but from what I've seen, even on level 4 difficulty, a four-man group won't have much trouble unless they start playing extremely recklessly.

Overall it's clear that this is going to be a VERY different game from classic EQ. It's much more casual-focused and emphasizing fun and QoL over hardcore challenge. For this reason I don't think it's even worth trying to come up with a min/max class combo. You're literally better off just playing whatever you think will be the most fun, because the game simply doesn't appear to be difficult enough to justify min/maxing. Oh, and the loot system they have in place completely negates farming items, so there is zero incentive to roll a traditional "power" combo (i.e. ENC/CLR/MAG or MNK/SHM/ENC, etc...) thinking that this will allow you to farm difficult camps. Items are going to be extremely cheap because they will be very easy to acquire. This also means there is very little incentive to even farm plat. This really looks like a version of EQ that is heavily focused on encouraging solo and small group dungeon play for most of the leveling experience, where the player will gain XP while personally looting most of his own gear.

Yes, it is literally that. Group up with your homies and roll through some dungeons. Or do it solo. Looks pretty chill either way. If it was just classic eq again with multiple classes people would bitch forever about how unfair certain class combos are. They are doing a lot of fun stuff with this so I am definitely checking it out. I like the new kerran/froglok races and how the textures are implemented. Iksars get a starting city near north ro. Auto song twisting, extra spell gems AAs. Some classes we havent seen in a classic environment. Actual robe graphics for every race.
Can tell lots of attention to detail etc, but everyone is expecting Classic EQ when we already have 4 flavors of that.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Knuckle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are finally down to the nitty gritty, we have met the criteria of having exactly one tank class, one form of slow, and one form of significant healing.
Some final audits are to eliminate redundancy in classes where the overlap may be less desirable. So I will be eliminating: Shadow knight + Necromancer / Paladin + Cleric / Shaman + Beastlord.
This brings us down to 33 viable "Max Raid Difficulty Solo" Specs down from the original 560 combinations.

Of these 33 Specs, I listed 22 as "Top Tier" For Solo max difficulty raid content, but included a tier list for all:

I agree with your general analysis here, especially in terms of needing to balance a build between DPS/tanking/heals/slow. But the intricacies of the unique EQL systems will probably throw a wrench in leaning too heavily on the classic EQ meta for accurate theorycrafting. For example, the stance system is hugely impactful. WAR, SK and PAL get a defensive stance that reduces incoming damage 50%, with the reduced damage instead drawing down endurance on a 1:1 basis. Rogues, Monks, Rangers, Bards and Beastlords get Evasive stance, which avoids 95% of attacks entirely, with the avoided damage drawing down endurance at a 1:2 basis.

So basically this means that your tanks benefit from extremely high AC paired with defensive stance + heals, while your DPS classes benefit more from slow + burst DPS. Defensive stance gives more sustain, while evasive is shorter lived but allows you to avoid damage almost entirely for its duration. Basically what I'm getting at is that if your burst DPS is high enough, you probably don't even need a traditional tank class in your build. For example, something like CLR/ROG/BRD should be very viable. Cleric AC/HP buffs make the Rogue fairly sturdy as a tank, heals give sustain, Rogue DPS is through the roof with Bard self-haste, Bard is also slowing to make tanking easier. Cleric buffs + bard songs pump your resists to insane levels for raid kills. I've also considered BRD/SHM/WIZ. Slow/Malo the mob, pop evasive stance, and start dropping nukes. Slow+Evasive means you aren't even taking damage, so as long as your mana pool is deep enough you should be able to kill almost anything very quickly.

I think you're also right about Druids being very "meh" in EQL. I would also throw Necros into that camp, as well. Warriors also seem less attractive due to PAL and SK bringing defensive stance in addition to utility. And Monks go down a notch since FD is much less useful in a meta featuring instancing, respawn at zone-in, and no XP loss on death. And while I expect that Enchanters will still be extremely powerful, I think their power will decline substantially relative to other classes. Due to the much faster paced nature of the game compared to classic EQ (and the very high out-of-combat health/mana regen), damage-over-time spells and any sort of "efficiency killing" strategies (i.e. root rotting, fear kiting, quad kiting, reverse charming) will be much less appealing. The EQL meta seems to be about killing very quickly. Your build needs to combine burst DPS and just enough sustain (some combination of tanking/avoidance, heals, and slow) to get through fights. But you really don't gain anything by fighting "efficiently" in the classic EQ since, because you regen so much out of combat. So in this regard, the ideal build is very heavy on DPS and has only "just enough" defense to survive tough fights.

I'm also interested to play around with Beastlords. They seem very strong, and I think will be especially good if paired with an SK/PAL. The BST has dual wield and block, the tanks bring double attack and parry. So combined you have an extremely sturdy quadding tank with a nasty pet. Throw in a Bard or Cleric third wheel and you're off to the races. I'm a bit torn between starting with that build, or doing CLR/MAG/RNG, which I think will be very solid 1-50 and scale well into Kunark with the Ranger and Mage epics (Ranger self-hasting with Cloak, slowing with Epic, flexibility of fighting in melee or using bow, combined with Mage Epic pet + Cleric heals/buffs? Yeah, that's gg).

Another factor to consider is the item upgrade system and the ANY slots. Given that shields are the most stat-heavy items in the game, they are an obvious choice for the ANY slots. Something like the Shield of Stalwart Seas will be absurdly powerful when upgraded and stuffed in the ANY slot. Get that to +7 or above and you're potentially looking at something absurd like 80AC and +50 STR/STA from a single item. I believe they've said that stat caps have been raised to something like 500, so there's definitely a lot of room to run with upgrading items.

Ultimately, while this sort of theorycrafting is fun, from what I've heard it seems like almost any reasonable build will be solo-raid viable on anything but the highest difficulty. So I really think that just playing a combination of classes you find enjoyable/cool-looking is the actual EQL meta.

[kjs86z2]

what do berserkers do

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with your general analysis here, especially in terms of needing to balance a build between DPS/tanking/heals/slow. But the intricacies of the unique EQL systems will probably throw a wrench in leaning too heavily on the classic EQ meta for accurate theorycrafting. For example, the stance system is hugely impactful. WAR, SK and PAL get a defensive stance that reduces incoming damage 50%, with the reduced damage instead drawing down endurance on a 1:1 basis. Rogues, Monks, Rangers, Bards and Beastlords get Evasive stance, which avoids 95% of attacks entirely, with the avoided damage drawing down endurance at a 1:2 basis.

So basically this means that your tanks benefit from extremely high AC paired with defensive stance + heals, while your DPS classes benefit more from slow + burst DPS. Defensive stance gives more sustain, while evasive is shorter lived but allows you to avoid damage almost entirely for its duration. Basically what I'm getting at is that if your burst DPS is high enough, you probably don't even need a traditional tank class in your build. For example, something like CLR/ROG/BRD should be very viable. Cleric AC/HP buffs make the Rogue fairly sturdy as a tank, heals give sustain, Rogue DPS is through the roof with Bard self-haste, Bard is also slowing to make tanking easier. Cleric buffs + bard songs pump your resists to insane levels for raid kills. I've also considered BRD/SHM/WIZ. Slow/Malo the mob, pop evasive stance, and start dropping nukes. Slow+Evasive means you aren't even taking damage, so as long as your mana pool is deep enough you should be able to kill almost anything very quickly.

I think you're also right about Druids being very "meh" in EQL. I would also throw Necros into that camp, as well. Warriors also seem less attractive due to PAL and SK bringing defensive stance in addition to utility. And Monks go down a notch since FD is much less useful in a meta featuring instancing, respawn at zone-in, and no XP loss on death. And while I expect that Enchanters will still be extremely powerful, I think their power will decline substantially relative to other classes. Due to the much faster paced nature of the game compared to classic EQ (and the very high out-of-combat health/mana regen), damage-over-time spells and any sort of "efficiency killing" strategies (i.e. root rotting, fear kiting, quad kiting, reverse charming) will be much less appealing. The EQL meta seems to be about killing very quickly. Your build needs to combine burst DPS and just enough sustain (some combination of tanking/avoidance, heals, and slow) to get through fights. But you really don't gain anything by fighting "efficiently" in the classic EQ since, because you regen so much out of combat. So in this regard, the ideal build is very heavy on DPS and has only "just enough" defense to survive tough fights.

I'm also interested to play around with Beastlords. They seem very strong, and I think will be especially good if paired with an SK/PAL. The BST has dual wield and block, the tanks bring double attack and parry. So combined you have an extremely sturdy quadding tank with a nasty pet. Throw in a Bard or Cleric third wheel and you're off to the races. I'm a bit torn between starting with that build, or doing CLR/MAG/RNG, which I think will be very solid 1-50 and scale well into Kunark with the Ranger and Mage epics (Ranger self-hasting with Cloak, slowing with Epic, flexibility of fighting in melee or using bow, combined with Mage Epic pet + Cleric heals/buffs? Yeah, that's gg).

Another factor to consider is the item upgrade system and the ANY slots. Given that shields are the most stat-heavy items in the game, they are an obvious choice for the ANY slots. Something like the Shield of Stalwart Seas will be absurdly powerful when upgraded and stuffed in the ANY slot. Get that to +7 or above and you're potentially looking at something absurd like 80AC and +50 STR/STA from a single item. I believe they've said that stat caps have been raised to something like 500, so there's definitely a lot of room to run with upgrading items.

Ultimately, while this sort of theorycrafting is fun, from what I've heard it seems like almost any reasonable build will be solo-raid viable on anything but the highest difficulty. So I really think that just playing a combination of classes you find enjoyable/cool-looking is the actual EQL meta.

Yeah this theory craft was specifically for the most difficult content at the highest setting solo. My assumption is these challenges will be more difficult to compete without a solid way to sustain hp/mana for extended duration and/or survive burst. I think they are balancing some of the gods/dragons for this including replacing death touch with other mechanics, which I can only guess will be flurry.

Either way I agree those stances do greatly change the approach in some ways, in other ways maybe not. Monk value still seems high to me simply because of how high their cap on skills are, I know they also get block which is a defensive skill that I do not know that any class gets which provides more value to the tank class aspect.

As far as Pal/SK getting defensive stance, that seems like a big deal, I am curious what they are giving warrior to offset this, as they are pretty meh in the tank dept if all three classes can pop defensive.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by kjs86z2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

what do berserkers do

Pure melee DPS like Rogues but use 2H weapons instead of daggers. The Devs have stated that they reworked Berserkers more than any other class, though, so we'll see what they came up with exactly. But I imagine their core gameplay will remain largely unchanged: big melee DPS.

Originally Posted by Knuckle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah this theory craft was specifically for the most difficult content at the highest setting solo. My assumption is these challenges will be more difficult to compete without a solid way to sustain hp/mana for extended duration and/or survive burst. I think they are balancing some of the gods/dragons for this including replacing death touch with other mechanics, which I can only guess will be flurry.

Either way I agree those stances do greatly change the approach in some ways, in other ways maybe not. Monk value still seems high to me simply because of how high their cap on skills are, I know they also get block which is a defensive skill that I do not know that any class gets which provides more value to the tank class aspect.

As far as Pal/SK getting defensive stance, that seems like a big deal, I am curious what they are giving warrior to offset this, as they are pretty meh in the tank dept if all three classes can pop defensive.

I believe the devs said they added block to Warriors and Rangers (although I'm sure at a lower skill cap than Monks get). Beastlords also have block.

If you look at this site, you can see a lot of the changes they've announced on the lefthand sidebar: https://everquestguides.com/legends/

[kjs86z2]

You guys are really killing me. I was dead set on playing monk / enchanter / xx (undecided).

Now it sounds like both just aren't great since no need for FD or clarity and charm not being as strong since player characters will be hitting a lot harder.

[Evia]

Originally Posted by kjs86z2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys are really killing me. I was dead set on playing monk / enchanter / xx (undecided).

Now it sounds like both just aren't great since no need for FD or clarity and charm not being as strong since player characters will be hitting a lot harder.

Same. I was starting to lean into Cleric/Enchanter/Monk...but now idk.

What about Rogue/Ranger/Monk for ultimate melee dps machine? Or maybe Rogue/Monk/Bard?

Can you not stack pets? So like, necro/beastlord/magician wouldnt work for 3 pets right?

[BradZax]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Same. I was starting to lean into Cleric/Enchanter/Monk...but now idk.

What about Rogue/Ranger/Monk for ultimate melee dps machine? Or maybe Rogue/Monk/Bard?

Can you not stack pets? So like, necro/beastlord/magician wouldnt work for 3 pets right?

Thj was 3 pets, I never played that class but I think emp did.

I had a sk/bst/rog that was a dwarf and he was so rad with his two skeleton bros and daggers and black armor and scar on his eye.

Watching another video, it looks like they are going hard into the THJ system of combo'ing AAs from different classes, not classic p99 class combos.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by kjs86z2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys are really killing me. I was dead set on playing monk / enchanter / xx (undecided).

Now it sounds like both just aren't great since no need for FD or clarity and charm not being as strong since player characters will be hitting a lot harder.

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Same. I was starting to lean into Cleric/Enchanter/Monk...but now idk.

What about Rogue/Ranger/Monk for ultimate melee dps machine? Or maybe Rogue/Monk/Bard?

You guys are looking at this through a P99 lens where Enchanters are far and away the most powerful solo class, and where Monks are the best solo melee class (and where FD is one of the most powerful abilities in the game in general). So it makes sense that you'd think ENC + MNK + CLR, SHM, BRD, MAG, etc... would result in the best EQL class. But this really seems to be an entirely different experience they're going for, one where pretty much any reasonable combination of classes can solo effectively. There is no need to rely on OP charm mechanics to solo in EQL, and for that matter nor is there really any reason to try to become more powerful than the next guy, due to the way that loot and instancing works. This is not meant to be a hardcore, competitive type of MMO where players compete for a limited number of spawns. For better or worse, this is going to be more like, "Everyone who shows up and plays gets a participation trophy". The focus is on the individual player (or optionally bringing a few friends) running through dungeon instances for loot. There is not really going to be a meta of "build the most powerful solo monster character you can and farm powerful items to sell for plat", because 1) Every other player can easily farm the same item, and 2) Items can only be traded once before binding to the player, greatly reducing their resale value. This is why my biggest concern with EQL is not that it won't be fun, but simply that it will be so easy that it quickly becomes boring. The game is very much geared toward the casual player.

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can you not stack pets? So like, necro/beastlord/magician wouldnt work for 3 pets right?

No stacking pets. But pet classes get something called a "pet window" which allows for a limited number of permanent gear slots for their pet. The more powerful pet classes get more gear slots, and if you have more than one pet class, they are additive. For exmaple, I believe the Mage gets the standard four slots and an additional +3, while the necro gets +2. So if you were a Necro/Mage you would get +5 slots. Also, if you charm, your pet will automatically equip the gear in the pet slot, and if it dies it won't lose it. So that makes charming pretty fun. Charm just won't be wildly OP compared to everything else like it is in P1999, since player characters in general will be much stronger and mobs will be weaker.

[Evia]

This honestly makes EQL sound even cooler to me. I think I might just pick my favorite 3 Classes and smash them together and have fun. Less concerned about "min/maxing" it.

Which means I'll play Rogue/Bard for sure...just dunno on the 3rd class just yet.