Best trio to self farm gear/dungeons

[Lampolo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Claiming you are right without evidence is what you are doing. I am sorry, but that means nothing. Here, let me do it "I am right, and you are wrong".

See? Now we are at an impasse. The difference is I can show the math, and you can't. It is grade 5 math as well. I am not sure what you think games are other than a series of mathematical equations with rules. There is no magic here.

ok lets see the math for how a trio with a shaman can get more xp/pp an hour than a war/clr/ench trio from 1-60. You dont have the math because there is no trio with a shaman that can do this. This is why we dont need the math. but please explain what you are talking about

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok lets see the math for how a trio with a shaman can get more xp/pp an hour than a war/clr/ench trio from 1-60. You dont have the math because there is no trio with a shaman that can do this. This is why we dont need the math. but please explain what you are talking about

reread this:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let me break it down in a bit more detail. A lot of people don't think about why CH is efficient, so they just assume it is always better.

A Cleric gets CH at 39, so from 1-38 you don't have it. Therefore, when you talk about clerics being efficient for leveling, you are really talking about leveling from 39-60.

From levels 39-52 roughly speaking, you really aren't healing more than about 1200 HP per cast of CH. This is because your tank (or charmed mob) isn't going to have more than 2k HP, especially on a non-twinked run, and most clerics will CH around 40% life. My 51 Monk with decent twink gear like Fungi, IFS, and Epic only has 1800HP for reference.

At 39 a Shaman can slow for 40% at 125 mana, and heal for 540 with 300 mana. 40% of 1200HP = 480 HP, so for 425 mana a Shaman is mitigating 1020 damage. With the 10 HP/Tick regen the Shaman is providing, that is another 100 damage mitigated per minute. That is very comparable to a cleric in terms of mana to hp from levels 39-52 or so.

CH really starts to shine like 54-60 when the enchanter is starting to charm mobs with 4k HP or more, and your gear/HP buffs are pushing the tank player closer to 3k+ HP. Even then, a Shaman is doing better than you think. At 3k HP CH is typically healing about 1800 HP when you start healing at 40% life. Turgurs insects slows for 66%, so it is mitigating roughly 1200 HP, and Chloroblast is healing 385 HP for 175 HP. So again for 425 mana you are mitigating basically 1600 damage instead of 1800 damage when compared to CH. If you add regen (150HP per minute), the difference is pretty small.

The nice thing about having the Shaman slowing instead of the Enchanter is it saves the Enchanter more mana for CC and pet management. A Shaman being able to cannibalize means they have more mana to play around with than the Enchanter, so you can manage mana usage a bit better for more balanced meditate sessions. You aren't being very efficient if your cleric is always sitting at full mana and your enchanter is running low.

CH is obviously more efficient when you have a tank with 5K+ HP, or are keeping a pet with like 8k+ HP, but that is really an end game scenario, when you can think about getting Torpor for your Shaman, a full spellbook for your Enchanter, etc.

[Lampolo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let me break it down in a bit more detail. A lot of people don't think about why CH is efficient, so they just assume it is always better.

A Cleric gets CH at 39, so from 1-38 you don't have it. Therefore, when you talk about clerics being efficient for leveling, you are really talking about leveling from 39-60.

Clerics get all healing spells earlier and some the shaman does not making the cleric more efficient at leveling at all levels.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At 39 a Shaman can slow for 40% at 125 mana, and heal for 540 with 300 mana. 40% of 1200HP = 480 HP, so for 425 mana a Shaman is mitigating 1020 damage. With the 10 HP/Tick regen the Shaman is providing, that is another 100 damage mitigated per minute. That is very comparable to a cleric in terms of mana to hp from levels 39-52 or so.

We are talking about a trio. The slow is already happening without the shaman. You can have slows and complete heal at the same time in a trio. Back to matching shapes and colors for you pal!

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The nice thing about having the Shaman slowing instead of the Enchanter is it saves the Enchanter more mana for CC and pet management. A Shaman being able to cannibalize means they have more mana to play around with than the Enchanter, so you can manage mana usage a bit better for more balanced meditate sessions. You aren't being very efficient if your cleric is always sitting at full mana and your enchanter is running low.

The clerics mana is the bottle neck in this trio, not the enchanters. You have no clue what you are talking about.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The clerics mana is the bottle neck in this trio, not the enchanters. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Furthermore, speaking of experience levelling to low 50s, a cleric’s CC FAR better supports enchanters CC than a shamans does.

[Toxigen]

If its self-found and no twinking, you're better off with a monk than a war for the 3rd.

I'm still a big, big fan of 3x iksar monk/shaman/necro though! Not as strong as enchanter but synergy all the way and if your group has no interest in playing enc/cleric its a great alternative.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Clerics get all healing spells earlier and some the shaman does not making the cleric more efficient at leveling at all levels.

That may be where some of your assumptions are coming from. P99 does not always require maximum efficiency heals to maximize kills per hour. There are also factors that typically limit max kills per hour, such as respawn timers.

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are talking about a trio. The slow is already happening without the shaman. You can have slows and complete heal at the same time in a trio. Back to matching shapes and colors for you pal!

If you are killing a large number of mobs per hour, and your Enchanter is the one pulling, the Enchanter will not be able to slow every mob. They don't have the mana. Remember, when you are pulling and casting spells you are not meditating. If the mobs are easy enough for the Warrior to face pull multiple at a time, I am not sure why you think the group is going to take enough damage to require a Cleric's higher efficiency heals for maximum kill speed.

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The clerics mana is the bottle neck in this trio, not the enchanters. You have no clue what you are talking about.

If the Cleric is the bottleneck, you are relying too much on CH to fix your strategy flaws. An Enchanter is in greater danger of running out of mana when managing a pet, pulling, buffing, and CCing all at the same time. The cleric is spending most of their time meditating with Clarity.

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If its self-found and no twinking, you're better off with a monk than a war for the 3rd.

I'm still a big, big fan of 3x iksar monk/shaman/necro though! Not as strong as enchanter but synergy all the way and if your group has no interest in playing enc/cleric its a great alternative.

I agree that sounds like a fun combo!

[BigPlays]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

reread this:

I think the problem is that 54-60 takes longer (or as long) as 1-54.

Parameters mean everything too. Are you going to get a 90 or 96% rez every time you die from another player? Or are you gonna raw dog it? Are you assuming this group is going all the way to 60 or are they just playing for fun and want to be most efficient in their use of time?

And in case of death, you could be losing hours if not days of exp. So I think the 90% rez (even the 50%) must factor in as you will most likely eat some deaths. Granted you could pay for a rez, but I think having the rez ready and available is important.

This is all factoring in this group is going 1-60 and not getting bored at 40 and stopping.

I think you need to come up with parameters before you can really have this discussion.

[Lampolo]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If its self-found and no twinking, you're better off with a monk than a war for the 3rd..

Monk would be much harder to heal. This is already the weak spot like I said earlier

[Lampolo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That may be where some of your assumptions are coming from. P99 does not always require maximum efficiency heals to maximize kills per hour. There are also factors that typically limit max kills per hour, such as respawn timers.

Bringing up spawn timers is another technical vagrancy. Are you bringing it up to sound right to OP or to yourself? Heals mean a lot for xp. Sham needs special playstyle to heal for group. That play style is not optimal for xp regardless of spawn timers.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are killing a large number of mobs per hour, and your Enchanter is the one pulling, the Enchanter will not be able to slow every mob. They don't have the mana. Remember, when you are pulling and casting spells you are not meditating. If the mobs are easy enough for the Warrior to face pull multiple at a time, I am not sure why you think the group is going to take enough damage to require a Cleric's higher efficiency heals for maximum kill speed.

Enchanters don’t pull well for xp. Not sure why you brought this up. You need to stop advising people on here. You have probably wasted 1000’s of hours of newbies time on dog shit class selection. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the Cleric is the bottleneck, you are relying too much on CH to fix your strategy flaws. An Enchanter is in greater danger of running out of mana when managing a pet, pulling, buffing, and CCing all at the same time. The cleric is spending most of their time meditating with Clarity.

The enchanters mana comes and goes very quickly. There is nothing you can do about a series of pet breaks. The clerics mana is deep and needs to be protected. Cleric feels very weak until close to 60 if not 60 and having anyone else heal for xp 1-60 would be super slow and boring.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bringing up spawn timers is another technical vagrancy. Are you bringing it up to sound right to OP or to yourself? Heals mean a lot for xp. Sham needs special playstyle to heal for group. That play style is not optimal for xp regardless of spawn timers.

It's not a technical vagrancy at all. If you only have 10 mobs spawning per 30 minutes in your camp, you can only kill 10 mobs per 30 minutes, even if your group is the most min/max composition possible. If a suboptimal group can clear the spawns and recover before the next wave, they are getting the same kills per hour as the min/max group. You cannot make the assumption that you have an endless supply of mobs, or that endless supplies of mobs have zero costs. Pulling mobs from farther away has a cost.

Originally Posted by Lampolo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters don’t pull well for xp. Not sure why you brought this up. You need to stop advising people on here. You have probably wasted 1000’s of hours of newbies time on dog shit class selection.

The enchanters mana comes and goes very quickly. There is nothing you can do about a series of pet breaks. The clerics mana is deep and needs to be protected. Cleric feels very weak until close to 60 if not 60 and having anyone else heal for xp 1-60 would be super slow and boring.

You need to play more, this is simply incorrect. The only thing you got right here is that enchanter mana can go very quickly.