RAID SUSPENSION RESOLUTIONS

[HitsmeChanter]

Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For places like TOV this becomes a way to make sure people are MUCH more careful with their trains, to the point they wont sit their raid force on another raid force at all most likely unless absolutely necessary. No more of this, we wait on top of them for them to clear the trash then run in stuff.

Anti leapfrogging - 20 minute lockout on FTE as soon as you feel your raid force is ready to engage in that time. Be it killing adds, figuring out kites, whatever, 20 minutes to get your shit together or lose your FTE and another guild can engage. That's the time between statue / AoW and basically all turn ins like Zordak so why not make it universal?

The problem with both of these is that trains are only really bad because of rooted dragons, we all have to claw to get as close to that target as possible then at the last second train and get an edge for loot. Solve this with an FTE race and a lockout. FTE'rs die at the end of their race, and no trains are needed.

Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ST- Just give one guild ST every week who can kill there and rotate it.

Tunare - If you can actually clear growth ON YOUR OWN within 10 hours, you get a rotation slot.

Ring war - Rotate if you can clear it. If you cannot start it within an hour of pop, let the next guild in line know and they can take that one, and you will be given your shot at the next one.

All of these ideas are just ideas to preserve/protect the super guilds. Kinda makes it hard for any other guilds to have a chance. If you can't get a shot at something, you can't prove that you can do it. Moreover, its hard to hold member interest to build numbers for something if you cant just compete and try for it.

As for the idea of if you cant kill it within an hour, you forfeit, that's just jockeying to get riot more mobs. Everyone knows there is only one guild on the server that can kill anything at any time of day. A rotation slot should allow for 24 hours to complete the content. If you don't think you can complete it in time and concede it within say 6 hours of pop, then you can take the next pop IMHO.

It seems to me that a lot of our problems can be resolved with FTE races. If your guild FTE's the mob you have a set amount of time to kill it. If you fail, you're out until all other present competitors have taken a shot at it, or for like 1.5 hours, whichever comes first. I think that this eliminates the need for the massive trains that honestly seem to cause a lot of our petitions.

[kaizersoze]

Originally Posted by HitsmeChanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with both of these is that trains are only really bad because of rooted dragons, we all have to claw to get as close to that target as possible then at the last second train and get an edge for loot. Solve this with an FTE race and a lockout. FTE'rs die at the end of their race, and no trains are needed.



All of these ideas are just ideas to preserve/protect the super guilds. Kinda makes it hard for any other guilds to have a chance. If you can't get a shot at something, you can't prove that you can do it. Moreover, its hard to hold member interest to build numbers for something if you cant just compete and try for it.

As for the idea of if you cant kill it within an hour, you forfeit, that's just jockeying to get riot more mobs. Everyone knows there is only one guild on the server that can kill anything at any time of day. A rotation slot should allow for 24 hours to complete the content. If you don't think you can complete it in time and concede it within say 6 hours of pop, then you can take the next pop IMHO.

It seems to me that a lot of our problems can be resolved with FTE races. If your guild FTE's the mob you have a set amount of time to kill it. If you fail, you're out until all other present competitors have taken a shot at it, or for like 1.5 hours, whichever comes first. I think that this eliminates the need for the massive trains that honestly seem to cause a lot of our petitions.

I would be fine with amendments to my suggestion to make things like RW a same day kill. Though as far as things like proving they can do Tuna (im aasssuming youre referring to that?) Maybe set aside the 4th week for an attempt. If they can do it, on their own, then add them to the rotation and make the joint raid take the week after the last guild was added.

I also never said that you just conceded the mob after the timer would expire, only that a different guild could engage. You could still go after it, but any trash you cleared would then also be out of their way as well and they could snag the next lock. However to prevent people from chain locking and not engaging, institute a strict one time limit on their first lock. No just running to the dragon, getting yellow, dancing around the engage to go lock it again later just to prevent people from engaging.

The ST zone rotation I proposed would give guilds like Kittens, who used to not be in the rotations, a slot since im 99% sure they have enough keys to compete if they really wanted to. They just sort of dont, I think.

As for the rooted dragons? Im sorry people need to actually play EQ and not just wait at the zoneline, but this is the current situation and I dont think theyre going to go back on it now.

[lookitsjb]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you guys really think every petition is simply that cut and dry? There's a lot of grey areas, a lot of give and take, a lot of interpretations of the rules, a lot of misunderstandings.

This idea of punishing "wolf calling" belies an underlying belief that there's specific entities who are more guilty of frivolous petitions than others, and I truly don't believe that to be the case. Every petition can be argued by either side convincingly, this stuff isn't ever as simple as we'd like it to be and the evidence is notoriously hard to evaluate.

There's simply no objective way to say someone's acting in bad faith, most of the questionable petitions tend to be questions of intent, which is nearly impossible to determine, rather than something that you can immediately call an outright lie or bad faith petition. Additionally, with the long delays involved in the process of ruling on these things a punishment is not as significant of a deterrent. Behaviorally, its well established that punishment doesn't work for shaping when its randomly applied and the longer its delayed from the target behavior.

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" — Obi-Wan Kenobi, Return of the Jedi.

The concept here is to indirectly force guilds to work together. A member acting in bad faith versus an accident is, in most cases, clear. And in most cases, is something that is recognized immediately. These accidents don't always need to result in concessions, however, and I feel like that's where we need to start.

If someone runs through North Door, trains wyverns, and wipes a guild, the guild leaders can work together to pause all progress until both guilds are back to their "pre train" status. However if that happens, and the guild proceeds to FTE and kill a target (leapfrogging the trained guild), they used a clear accident to benefit them and should yield a punishment (concession or whatever). If that doesn't get resolved and a petition is filed, the GMs can choose to punish the guild that trained the wyverns, or punish the guild that filed the petition. But if it gets to the point where GMs need to be involved, a ban should be the outcome for one or both guilds.

IMO; The toxicity of the raid scene is stemming from the lack of consequence for actions. More, and more, people feel slighted while raiding and are actively looking for things to call other guilds out on, because be it tiny accidents or gigantic fuck-ups; they always go to petition since the leads wont work together. At worst, if the GM rules against you, you're forced to concede 1 or 2 of the target and thats it, which ultimately yields the same consequence as if you hadn't involved the GM to begin with. So I ask; Why bother the GMs, and not own your mistakes and move on? (Your being a generic 'you'.. not pointing at any guild/person directly)

The raid rules clearly state; "if you request that another guild concede a mob, you better be 100% certain that they made an error, otherwise you may be punished harshly." Let's use the one rule that's black-and-white as the foundation for the steps moving forward.

Another black-and-white on the same topic, "Note on Rule Lawyering – I think the spirit of everything we are trying to accomplish here is pretty clear. Anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions will not be rewarded. There will be no “technically this could be that”, or “well it doesn’t exactly say this word for word”. From this point forward we will be actively enforcing the spirit of these rules more so than the exact letter of the law. Don't expect to skirt passed a raid suspension on a loop hole or technicality."

[Fammaden]

Maybe it is, I don't know, but it never seems that simple to me. At least half of the shit lately feels like "we think they were kiting"...."no way we weren't kiting they are just mad they lost"....GM: "k they were kiting this time I guess fuck if I know, they concede the next one or two I guess".

[Dreenk317]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe it is, I don't know, but it never seems that simple to me. At least half of the shit lately feels like "we think they were kiting"...."no way we weren't kiting they are just mad they lost"....GM: "k they were kiting this time I guess fuck if I know, they concede the next one or two I guess".

that is definitely part of the problem. They do not follow the precedent that they establish.

[Raev]

The problem is that EQ is simply not designed to have two competing raid forces in the zone. There is no magic rule set that will make it work. I logged on to Riot discord today and read some of the quotes from the UN about Jorlleag AEs and Tunare and my brain began to rot.

I used to think rotations were the answer until I played on TAKP and watched one of the guilds there fail to kill KT with 40 boxes for 6 hours "because the throne room repopped too fast". Project 1999 is popular precisely because it's difficult to get those raid pixels.

So the solution has to be some sort of indirect competition, aka a time attack. The magic of quakes was always that the guilds who were most efficient got the most pixels, rather than the guilds that poopsocked/tracked the hardest. Making everything quakes would be a big step in the right direction IMO. But I still think my League Promotion System is even more reasonable.

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is that EQ is simply not designed to have two competing raid forces in the zone. There is no magic rule set that will make it work. I logged on to Riot discord today and read some of the quotes from the UN about Jorlleag AEs and Tunare and my brain began to rot.

I used to think rotations were the answer until I played on TAKP and watched one of the guilds there fail to kill KT with 40 boxes for 6 hours "because the throne room repopped too fast". Project 1999 is popular precisely because it's difficult to get those raid pixels.

So the solution has to be some sort of indirect competition, aka a time attack. The magic of quakes was always that the guilds who were most efficient got the most pixels, rather than the guilds that poopsocked/tracked the hardest. Making everything quakes would be a big step in the right direction IMO. But I still think my League Promotion System is even more reasonable.

Yea exclusive lockouts were pretty much a time attack. You wanted to clear your lock ASAP by killing your target. It worked as it was competitive and yet kept guilds more spaced for less petititons. However exclusive locks had some issues that led to Sirken getting rid of it rather than reworking it.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Nexii [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea exclusive lockouts were pretty much a time attack. You wanted to clear your lock ASAP by killing your target. It worked as it was competitive and yet kept guilds more spaced for less petititons. However exclusive locks had some issues that led to Sirken getting rid of it rather than reworking it.

That and alt tab jumping, but the client FPS fix is in so that’s not issue now. Give 3 hours and even casual guilds would have time.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Nexii [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea exclusive lockouts were pretty much a time attack. You wanted to clear your lock ASAP by killing your target. It worked as it was competitive and yet kept guilds more spaced for less petititons. However exclusive locks had some issues that led to Sirken getting rid of it rather than reworking it.

The problem with FTE lockouts is that every guild was dependent on a small number of people on adderall staring at their screen for hundreds of hours per week.

Another idea that occurs to me would just be to have representatives hang out and roll, but rather than an even roll your guild would get some sort of bonus based on their last kill times. So let's say for example Tunare spawns, and clear times were Riot: 3 hours, F/AG 4 hours, Aegis 5 hours, then the roll might be 0-50 riot, 51-80 F/AG, 81-100 Aegis. I'm sure there would be a million hours of lawyerquesting going into exactly how that roll would work! But it would keep the rotation from blowing up as the smaller guilds would be slower and thus get fewer chances, and it would also maintain an element of competition.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I used to think rotations were the answer until I played on TAKP and watched one of the guilds there fail to kill KT with 40 boxes for 6 hours "because the throne room repopped too fast". Project 1999 is popular precisely because it's difficult to get those raid pixels.

Nope. P99 is popular because there's no boxing allowed. Excluding launches of expansions and servers, the population was healthiest the handful of times there were rotations. Expect a spike in blue population while these guilds are banned.