Necromancer Decision

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Realistically, how much will you be soloing at level 60? At a raid you will always have regrowth so racial regen is moot.

Have a shorter but marginally harder grind to 60, or a much longer but slightly easier grind to 60?

Racial regen on a necro is a wash at best and not worth the xp penalty imo.

Obviously it depends on the player. But even if not soloing, mana efficiency is still a thing in grouping situations. Even in raids it might matter, at least for the shaman. You ever tried being the only shaman in a 30+ raid force? You are going to be casting buffs non-stop.

By the time you get in your 50s the regen will start largely offsetting the exp penalty if you are soloing.

Originally Posted by Scoojitsu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can you elaborate? I can only see those tinkered arms with clicky haste, must equip, WAR CLR.
How does that help the necro?

it doesn't help a necro. I was just responding someone talking about racial abilities and whether they are strong enough to win fights for you.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By the time you get in your 50s the regen will start largely offsetting the exp penalty if you are soloing.

On paper for a Necro I strongly disagree with this: as you get higher, mobs take much longer to kill, so while yes you'll regen more at higher levels, that regen will result in a minimal reduction of your downtime (and your overall leveling time) ... and I strongly suspect that it won't even come close to making up for the XP penalty.

However, my Necro isn't in his 50's yet, so I can't swear to that (it's certainly true for Shaman though).

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously it depends on the player. But even if not soloing, mana efficiency is still a thing in grouping situations. Even in raids it might matter, at least for the shaman. You ever tried being the only shaman in a 30+ raid force? You are going to be casting buffs non-stop.

On the other hand, I very strongly agree with this [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And heck, even if you've got a second Shaman on the raid, between buffing, debuffing, and slowing, mana goes fast!

[DMN]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On paper for a Necro I strongly disagree with this: as you get higher, mobs take much longer to kill, so while yes you'll regen more at higher levels, that regen will result in a minimal reduction of your downtime (and your overall leveling time) ... and I strongly suspect that it won't even come close to making up for the XP penalty.

Not quite following your logic on mobs taking longer to kill. At around 55-56, you will be regenerating about 10 more HP as an iksar. Necromancers can generally convert hp to mana in close to 1 to 1 ratio. So we have lich 25+ meditate +20. You can see just by looking at the raw numbers 25% just on the raw numbers here 10/45 = 22%. Of course it's not the whole picture because necromancers can launder hit points via mana use. But calculating that is very complicate or would require a ton of qualifications regarding combat strategy and spell usage. I did the math on it before and found Iksar will kill about 10% faster when not charming, and about 15% faster when charming solo but only at 60. So while you will never completely make up for the penalty, you will cut around half of it.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By the time you get in your 50s the regen will start largely offsetting the exp penalty if you are soloing.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So while you will never completely make up for the penalty, you will cut around half of it.

You went from "largely offsetting" to "around half" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But really that's all I was trying to say: both purely by the numbers, and if you consider the actual details of play (see Vexenu's post above) regen does not make up for the XP penalty (or at least not fully).

Since you're saying as much, I think we're both in total agreement. If you pick a regen race, it will take you a (meaningfully) longer time to get to 60: as an Iksar, the regen will not let you keep up with a Dark Elf Necromancer or Barbarian Shaman.

As for whether the difference is exactly "largely offsetting" (which would be maybe 80%?) or "around half" (50%) ... or whatever other number? I imagine that largely depends on what level you are, where you hunt, etc. so I don't think there's one right number.

I just don't want anyone thinking that number is 100% or higher.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You went from "largely offsetting" to "around half" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But really that's all I was trying to say: both purely by the numbers, and if you consider the actual details of play (see Vexenu's post above) regen does not make up for the XP penalty (or at least not fully).

I'd assume someone concerned about optimal leveling speed would be taking the optimal path, which would be charming. That one was 15%, or 75% of the exp penalty.

[kjs86z]

The answer is Iksar.

Everything else is justification for your aesthetic preference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree with a previous poster on this thread. If your goal is to get a Necromancer to 50 so you can farm plat, then you should roll a Necromancer now. This allows you to get to 50 ASAP, and maximize your plat gains. I doubt the reduced downtime from the HP regen will offset the months of not farming plat while you wait for Kunark. I would recommend Gnome in this case, due to Tinkering. Kill guards for plat. Tinker for plat.

If you plan on getting a Necromancer to 60 to raid and solo high level monsters, wait until Kunark and roll an Iksar. The HP regen is too big a bonus to pass up. Even if you hate the way Iksars look, you will be in Skeleton Form most of the time anyway.

The other thing to consider is: Why not both? Make a 50 Necromancer now to get plat and Necromancer items. Then, give all that stuff to your new Iksar Necromancer whenever you want to make the switch. The 50 Necromancer will still be able to plat farm naked, and you can use the 50 Necromancer to research Necromancer Spells for your Iksar. If they are a Gnome, they will still be able to Tinker as well.

[Vexenu]

As I touched on earlier in this thread, if you're soloing a Necro for XP from 50-60 you will ideally be charming somewhere like HS or KC. When you charm solo on a Necro you end your fights by killing both your former pet and the mob you were fighting, getting XP for both. The ideal way to do this is to time the kill so that you can finish each off with a single cast of Deflux (lifetap). Sometimes you might even require an extra cast of Deflux to finish off the mob. Because of the risk of charm breaks you will also want to make sure you keep your health from dropping too low, so you might throw in an extra tap during the fight.

The point I'm getting at is that if you are charm soloing a Necro at 50+ you end up lifetapping A LOT by necessity, and just because Iksars regen more health doesn't mean they don't have to lifetap as much. They still have to finish off those mobs and a lifetap is the most efficient way to do so. They simply don't get as much benefit from the lifetap heal.

In other words, the additional Iksar regen ends up providing very little value. They still have to cast just as many lifetaps to kill their mobs. They expend the same amount of mana per kill. They just don't heal themselves as much from the tap because their regen picks up the difference.

Example:

Iksar Necro currently at 75% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

Erudite Necro currently at 60% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

So ultimately the Iksar is paying a 20% XP penalty for regen which is providing very little value in this context. This is NOT to say that Iksar regen is useless, or even that Iksars are not the best min/max race. But regen is about pure efficiency, and there are inefficiencies built into Necro charming (in the form of lifetap finishing blows) that allow the other races to be very competitive, if not objectively better in terms of XP/hour.

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I touched on earlier in this thread, if you're soloing a Necro for XP from 50-60 you will ideally be charming somewhere like HS or KC. When you charm solo on a Necro you end your fights by killing both your former pet and the mob you were fighting, getting XP for both. The ideal way to do this is to time the kill so that you can finish each off with a single cast of Deflux (lifetap). Sometimes you might even require an extra cast of Deflux to finish off the mob. Because of the risk of charm breaks you will also want to make sure you keep your health from dropping too low, so you might throw in an extra tap during the fight.

The point I'm getting at is that if you are charm soloing a Necro at 50+ you end up lifetapping A LOT by necessity, and just because Iksars regen more health doesn't mean they don't have to lifetap as much. They still have to finish off those mobs and a lifetap is the most efficient way to do so. They simply don't get as much benefit from the lifetap heal.

In other words, the additional Iksar regen ends up providing very little value. They still have to cast just as many lifetaps to kill their mobs. They expend the same amount of mana per kill. They just don't heal themselves as much from the tap because their regen picks up the difference.

Example:

Iksar Necro currently at 75% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

Erudite Necro currently at 60% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

So ultimately the Iksar is paying a 20% XP penalty for regen which is providing very little value in this context. This is NOT to say that Iksar regen is useless, or even that Iksars are not the best min/max race. But regen is about pure efficiency, and there are inefficiencies built into Necro charming (in the form of lifetap finishing blows) that allow the other races to be very competitive, if not objectively better in terms of XP/hour.

Lots of bad paper napkin math and flawed logic going on here.

You started with a weak argument and made it worse by providing one very specific vacuum-esque circumstance.

RNG happens. Mistakes are made. Any time your perfect little scenario goes south, Iksar regen cushions the blow and keeps things going. The exp penalty is a moot point. Its just 20% more mobs to kill on your way to 60 which means you'll have more money to blow on your big boy spells.

Also once Necro hits 49 and gets PE, if you're only engaging 2 mobs at a time (pet + 1) you're doing it wrong.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lots of bad paper napkin math and flawed logic going on here.

You started with a weak argument and made it worse by providing one very specific vacuum-esque circumstance.

RNG happens. Mistakes are made. Any time your perfect little scenario goes south, Iksar regen cushions the blow and keeps things going. The exp penalty is a moot point. Its just 20% more mobs to kill on your way to 60 which means you'll have more money to blow on your big boy spells.

Also once Necro hits 49 and gets PE, if you're only engaging 2 mobs at a time (pet + 1) you're doing it wrong.

I said flat out my example only applied to charming. I've played both Iksar and non-Iksar Necros. The Iksar is definitely preferable, especially if you can gear him out well (the low INT is very noticeable otherwise). But people seem to imply that Iksar regen is so good that the other races are borderline unplayable. Which is ridiculous. Here are the facts about Necros:

1) Racial regen is hardly noticeable until 50+.
2) Iksar low INT/mana pool is very noticeable until you acquire high-end gear.
3) If you're charming 50-60, regen doesn't much come into play.
4) Regen does provides a noticeable efficiency advantage at high end when not charming.
5) Iksar is the undisputed min/max race.
6) VP Soul Well staff/Zlandicar's Heart/Holgresh Beads/Ring 10 provide high-end options for non-Iksar Necros to be more efficient.
7) There is very little reason to main a Necro anyway if you are a min/max type, endgame-focused player because they are an extremely boring and non-essential raid class for the most part. If you're that concerned about min/maxing, roll a pure melee, Cleric or Wizard and go carry your weight in raids.
8) There is nothing that an Iksar Necro can do that a similarly geared non-Iksar cannot also do.
9) Necro, regardless of race, is still the #1 most versatile, safest and self-sufficient solo class in the game.
10) FashionQuest ultimately rules all, this is an electronic elf simulator with no win condition. If you don't enjoy looking at the character you're sinking hundreds of hours into you're doing it wrong.