Socialized Medicine - Let's Discuss!

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With socialized medicine you aren't taking something for nothing. You paid taxes that acted as a form of public insurance, fulfilling the same role as other civic responsibilities; ie, you pay for police and firefighters even though there's a chance you'll never personally need them.

"Paid taxes" yeah right.

And if you think people on welfare are a small minority you're wrong. They're a minority but hardly small.

And what about those who make just enough to not qualify for large insurance subsidies so they have to piss away a good chunk of their monthly income on insurance they can't use because of very high deductibles?

[Lune]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Paid taxes" yeah right.

And if you think people on welfare are a small minority you're wrong. They're a minority but hardly small.

And what about those who make just enough to not qualify for large insurance subsidies so they have to piss away a good chunk of their monthly income on insurance they can't use because of very high deductibles?

I'm talking about the concept of socialized medicine, aka universal healthcare, not the perverse cartel that is US healthcare and Obamacare. Being forced to buy into insurance middlemen who pull the strings of our political representatives is one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed, and it's no way to handle healthcare. I'd even prefer completely free market healthcare over what we have.

So to answer your question, insurance companies should not be involved at all. It's a completely parasitic industry.

[Archalen]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Our conclusions don't really differ then and we agree on most of the points, other than anarchy being requisite for pruning. Though we may not really disagree on that either. You seem to suggest it is more of a betrayal of our political system than anything else and I think you point to it as anarchy because you favor an authoritarian government. It seems to me that a significant degree of coordination and denial of liberty inherent of a strongly authoritarian government could serve as an ample and perhaps superior substitute for the cruelty of nature.

I don't think socialist institutions are practical on a national scale with regards to a culturally amorphous society like the US. The rabid individualism embraced throughout the political spectrum in the US is an irreparable perversion of liberty promoted at the cost of community.

I find it interesting though that you consider it a uniquely human quality to sublimate reason for carnal impulse. I've considered the opposite to be true, i.e. man possesses the unique ability to deny his feelings. That is something I'll have to think on.

Sublimating reason for carnal impulse is not characteristic of morality (if that's what you meant, if it's not this still bears on discussion). Morality is related in conscious processes involving learning, reflection, and aspiration. Man does possess a unique ability to deny his feelings, and this is a notion that has implications in the study of linguistics, where language for humans offers the singular character of not being environmentally or hormonally stimulated. But morality is not a hormonal manifestation, rather a quite conscious and reflective one, although there is an emotional element insofar as cognitions effect our emotional responses which in turn can shape unconscious moral decisions. Again, there is much literature on this, if you were interested.

[big_ole_jpn]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's difficult or impossible to have a useful discussion with someone who regards anyone who harbors an opinion different from his own as "retarded."

Of course there's an appeal to emotion there; emotion lies at the very core of issues like this one. If you eliminate all emotion, you're left with cold unfeeling logic--which will determine that it's most efficient to simply cull any unproductive or excess members of society. Caring for the sick, the injured, and the infirm isn't efficient or logical. Plenty of other species don't do it. However it's the humane thing to do. I go a further step and claim that people should not face financial ruin simply because they get hurt or sick. Protecting people from the problems life can throw at them is the fundamental reason we build nations in the first place.

You think worker's comp is all great? Guess what, they start you out--if you're lucky--at 70% of your pre-injury earnings (that's the maximum here in OH) and whittle it down from there. Oh, and they don't adjust it for inflation, either, so have fun a decade later when your already paltry compensation has lost another third of its buying power. You think that's fair? I call it sociopathic.

I know what it means to have to deal with the system. I watched both my parents develop long-term illnesses that bankrupted and ruined them and left them destitute before they finally succumbed. They lost their house, land, life savings, and most of their possessions. Logically? Within our present system my parents would've been better off shooting themselves as soon as they got sick. I find that reality disgusting. I've watched other family members suffer injuries at the job and lose most of what they had, exchanging a solid middle-class life for scraping by at poverty level. I've watched, with ever growing anger, other family members get denied necessary treatments by for-profit insurance companies that care only for their bottom line, while the suffering continues and conditions worsen. None of these people are or were slackers or in any way deserving of mistreatment. It's wrong, and we can and should do better.

------------------------------

Folks who're out of work don't particularly bother me in an environment where there are more available workers than useful jobs for them. Again, either work has to be made, or society has to accept a (likely to increase) proportion of adults who simply aren't needed in the workforce. Denigrating such people as slackers or worthless fails to even slightly address the reality of that issue.

Danth

this guy has 1000 posts and apparently signs every one manually. lol

Posted from my iPhone

[Lune]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find it interesting though that you consider it a uniquely human quality to sublimate reason for carnal impulse. I've considered the opposite to be true, i.e. man possesses the unique ability to deny his feelings. That is something I'll have to think on.

Nah that's what I said-- we sublimate what is natural (and chaotic, efficient) into what is man-made (and ordered, entropically unfavorable). In other words, reason over feelings.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah that's what I said-- we sublimate what is natural (and chaotic, efficient) into what is man-made (and ordered, entropically unfavorable). In other words, reason over feelings.

I was referring to this,

But the thing about humans is that we have ethics and morals and we know when to sublimate productivity and the cruelty of nature for pleasure and quality of life.

You are suggesting then that man is inherently destructive and applies reason to surpress cruel inclinations. I think that makes perfect sense and expresses my view of the nature of man. Being overly empathic however, I was looking at it from the perspective that we posses the ability to surpress irrational feelings of compassion, guilt, shame to do what is needed. Two sides of the same coin, leading to seemingly different conclusions ^^

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm talking about the concept of socialized medicine, aka universal healthcare, not the perverse cartel that is US healthcare and Obamacare. Being forced to buy into insurance middlemen who pull the strings of our political representatives is one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed, and it's no way to handle healthcare. I'd even prefer completely free market healthcare over what we have.

So to answer your question, insurance companies should not be involved at all. It's a completely parasitic industry.

The concept of socialized medicine is wonderful. Free, quality healthcare for all? That's utopian.

But who would pay for it, how would you convince doctors to accept lower pay, and how would you convince prospective medical school students to spend all that money to go to medical school knowing they won't make enough money to pay back their loans?

Healthcare is big business and some of these doctors are making an absolute fortune. I'm not talking the small-town community doctor, I'm talking the specialists at NYU and such.

If the US converts to a single payer system doctors will leave the practice and others will be discouraged from pursuing the field at all. Money is a big driving force behind it, not necessarily the desire to help and heal their fellow man. Sad but true.

But yes in an ideal world not driven by greed universal healthcare is wonderful.

Oh and that ideal world does not include generations on welfare who expect government handouts. In an ideal world everyone would contribute and not just through sales tax on minor purchases.

[Lojik]

Single payer systems do have the advantage of reducing administration costs, which currently are about 25% of healthcare costs in the US (i read that somewhere, forget exactly.) The prices in the US are also jacked due to the effects of subsidies for health insurance and also student loans making med school cost a ton. Just to get back the money they spent on med school doctors have to charge an arm and a leg, while (if I'm not mistaken) a lot of European med schools are free. Also with how litigious American society is, doctors pay through the nose for malpractice insurance.

[Jarnauga]

Lune quoting Locke in a P99 thread, how about feeding pigs with caviar

Let's say i got a terminal disease. This disease has a cure. This cure costs something like 50 bucks to produce.

Now you're that company that sell the drug. And you sell it 10,000 bucks. The worst thing is, even if you know it's bullshit, you're gonna everything to find these 10,000 dollars, because it's either that or die.

Now if you think im exagerating things: not long in my own country a NGO called "medecins du monde" (doctors of the world) launch and ad campaign denouncing the margins practiced by big pharmaceutical companies. For example the margin on the leukemia cure is 20 000%. (whole website there, sorry it's in french: https://leprixdelavie.medecinsdumonde.org )

Now if you think it's okay, people making 20 000% margin betting on poor people will to live.. well, i don't want to be part of your world.

I pay a good chunk of my earning to get free healthcare, had to go to E/R not long ago, had full xrays and a free splint, plus one week of rest without losing any salary. I'm probably on the losing side since i'm still young and healthy, but don't care.

I actually remember seeing a good video about healthcare in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lune quoting Locke in a P99 thread, how about feeding pigs with caviar

Let's say i got a terminal disease. This disease has a cure. This cure costs something like 50 bucks to produce.

Now you're that company that sell the drug. And you sell it 10,000 bucks. The worst thing is, even if you know it's bullshit, you're gonna everything to find these 10,000 dollars, because it's either that or die.

Now if you think im exagerating things: not long in my own country a NGO called "medecins du monde" (doctors of the world) launch and ad campaign denouncing the margins practiced by big pharmaceutical companies. For example the margin on the leukemia cure is 20 000%. (whole website there, sorry it's in french: https://leprixdelavie.medecinsdumonde.org )

Now if you think it's okay, people making 20 000% margin betting on poor people will to live.. well, i don't want to be part of your world.

I pay a good chunk of my earning to get free healthcare, had to go to E/R not long ago, had full xrays and a free splint, plus one week of rest without losing any salary. I'm probably on the losing side since i'm still young and healthy, but don't care.

I actually remember seeing a good video about healthcare in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

That cost is most likely just a marginal production cost and doesn't include fixed costs of r & d, which is the big part of the price tag for pharmaceuticals. You also have to factor in all the failed drugs that were researched and not approved or just failures.