Respawn Dain after a failed Ring War

[Pan]

The only point of this thread was to get guilds to agree to exploit broken content - specifically Dain.

I don't have an issue with anyone taking a swing at a broken or improperly tuned ring war as often as the possibility recycles. More power to you if you can figure out a way to beat that third wave.

I do have an issue with the staff doing nothing about guilds exploiting content that was acknowledged to be broken since the end of August (post-fail Dain).

I do have an issue with people agreeing to divvy up the fruits of content that shouldn't exist but only does due to a bug. Especially if I'm asked to buy in and buy off on that exploit. To virtually sign a contract agreeing to cheat.

I'd love to be able to take a swing at unlimited Dains in our high-population wheelhouse. But we don't consider it (nor do we consider buying in and off on this agreement) because it's clearly an exploit.

That said, if you're the kind of person who subscribes to the notions that:

If you're not cheating, you're not trying
It's not cheating if you don't get caught
It's not cheating even if you get caught but don't get punished

I can respect that on some level. That's who you are. That's how you approach life and the game.

Just to bring the lack of enforcement to the fore, I'd almost encourage you to spawn and kill serial Dains. As many and as often as you can.

And in parallel, I encourage the staff to rewrite the server and raid rules to more reflect reality. Here are some examples:

1. If you didn't fraps it, it didn't happen.
2. Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. BUT ONLY IF YOU GET CAUGHT. Otherwise you're clearly responsible for nothing.
3. Feel free to openly admit to exploiting broken content (see the precedent on Dain as a guide) without consequence.

And so on.

As it stands around here, those raiders who choose not to exploit/cheat/train/grief as a matter of course are at a significant disadvantage to those who do. And it would make for a lot more level playing field if the server rules actually reflected what the staff was interested in enforcing - whatever that is.

But until that happens, I see no reason to being drawn into a jackpot to agree to exploit broken content (post-ring Dains).

And until that or a fix happens, I see no reason why those whose only impetus to follow the rules of the server is to avoid punishment should not spawn and kill Dain at every opportunity. There's clearly no consequences historically.

We won't be signing the agreement. But we won't be in the way if you want to divvy up exploited content, either.

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by Pan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only point of this thread was to get guilds to agree to exploit broken content - specifically Dain.

I don't have an issue with anyone taking a swing at a broken or improperly tuned ring war as often as the possibility recycles. More power to you if you can figure out a way to beat that third wave.

I do have an issue with the staff doing nothing about guilds exploiting content that was acknowledged to be broken since the end of August (post-fail Dain).

I do have an issue with people agreeing to divvy up the fruits of content that shouldn't exist but only does due to a bug. Especially if I'm asked to buy in and buy off on that exploit. To virtually sign a contract agreeing to cheat.

I'd love to be able to take a swing at unlimited Dains in our high-population wheelhouse. But we don't consider it (nor do we consider buying in and off on this agreement) because it's clearly an exploit.

That said, if you're the kind of person who subscribes to the notions that:

If you're not cheating, you're not trying
It's not cheating if you don't get caught
It's not cheating even if you get caught but don't get punished

I can respect that on some level. That's who you are. That's how you approach life and the game.

Just to bring the lack of enforcement to the fore, I'd almost encourage you to spawn and kill serial Dains. As many and as often as you can.

And in parallel, I encourage the staff to rewrite the server and raid rules to more reflect reality. Here are some examples:

1. If you didn't fraps it, it didn't happen.
2. Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. BUT ONLY IF YOU GET CAUGHT. Otherwise you're clearly responsible for nothing.
3. Feel free to openly admit to exploiting broken content (see the precedent on Dain as a guide) without consequence.

And so on.

As it stands around here, those raiders who choose not to exploit/cheat/train/grief as a matter of course are at a significant disadvantage to those who do. And it would make for a lot more level playing field if the server rules actually reflected what the staff was interested in enforcing - whatever that is.

But until that happens, I see no reason to being drawn into a jackpot to agree to exploit broken content (post-ring Dains).

And until that or a fix happens, I see no reason why those whose only impetus to follow the rules of the server is to avoid punishment should not spawn and kill Dain at every opportunity. There's clearly no consequences historically.

We won't be signing the agreement. But we won't be in the way if you want to divvy up exploited content, either.

Jesus its just a game man, relax. Paralleling it with assumptions on how I live my personal life with a wall of text is uncalled for. That being said, what exactly do we do with the Dain when it spawns after a fail? Never kill it? Its obvious that won't happen so, I reiterate, this thread was made to avoid the disaster that would be every Dain after a ring war fail.

All that has to happen is for a GM to say "Hey, we don't want you killing the Dain after a failed attempt, we will be death touching any further Dains that spawn after a failed attempt."

I don't see that anywhere, do you?

[Pint]

you guys are incredible, if you cant complete the ring war then this thread isnt even for you. some of us can complete the ring war and we arnt going to deny ourselves a challenge simply bc the rest of you have deemed something to be "too hard" or "unwinnable". what is that outrageously long and irrelevant diatribe about getting caught cheating even doing in this thread, nobody is cheating and nobody is doing anything that isnt public knowledge, unbelievable. y'all go high horse somewhere else on the internet.

[Pan]

@Detoxx: It's a bug according to Haynar.

Do you need to be told not to exploit each bug individually?

Is that seriously what you're basing your argument on?

@Pint: Nobody's completed it successfully yet (so am I to assume that this thread isn't for you?). I'm not averse to people trying. This thread is about the buggy Dain that happens after a failed attempt. Winnability of the war is rather irrelevant in that even if it were perfectly tuned, buggy Dains would still be at issue.

[Pint]

this thread is about what to do with no varianced dain's spawning after a failed ring war because in the past 200+ people show up and create havoc that is unnecessary. if the staff want us to leave them up to be DT'd then that would require require a 4 word post. If they dont care either way then neither should any of you. velious isnt going anywhere, the server has hit its ending point for content, the number of dain heads on the server is completely nonconsequential, it literally means nothing.

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by Pan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's a bug according to Haynar.

Do you need to be told not to exploit each bug individually?

Is that seriously what you're basing your argument on?

Are you aware that the Dain that spawns after a fail is the new timer on Dain? So I ask again, if a GM doesnt DT the new one, what exactly is supposed to happen? Leave Dain up forever?

Instead of playing the "holier than thou" card and tossing around accusations of cheating and exploiting, why dont you think of a solution? You've already stated that trying the Ring War isnt the issue, so what do we do with the Dain that spawns if we fail?

Also, according to your rationale, anyone who takes a TL box is exploiting.

[Pan]

Originally Posted by Detoxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you aware that the Dain that spawns after a fail is the new timer on Dain? So I ask again, if a GM doesnt DT the new one, what exactly is supposed to happen? Leave Dain up forever?

Instead of playing the "holier than thou" card and tossing around accusations of cheating and exploiting, why dont you think of a solution? You've already stated that trying the Ring War isnt the issue, so what do we do with the Dain that spawns if we fail?

Exploit it or don't.

It's pretty simple. We're guests here. By logging in, we tacitly agree to keep the server rules. One of those rules is not to exploit buggy shit. If Dain is buggy and we're keeping our end of the deal, we leave Dain up. At that point, it becomes the Staff's problem and they make an amendment one way or another (which, by the way, I called for).

As it stands, it's not yours to kill because it's buggy any more that it would be your call, if you were a guest in my house, to determine that you had the right to drink all of my beer (without invitation) because it was nearing the best by date. Or because someone else might drink it.

So you didn't answer my question: do you need to be told not to exploit every exploitable bug?

To answer yours: you're a guest here. Follow the house rules. If one of them is not to exploit bugs, don't do it. Leave Dain up if it's a buggy Dain. That's their problem to solve, not yours.

I understand the situation and it's admittedly a tough one. Especially absent intervention. I really don't care what Forsaken chooses to do. But couching it in the terms that everyone is gonna exploit a buggy Dain so let's figure out how to cooperate in the exploitation is pretty bankrupt given the rules that we all agree to follow when we log in.

This really shouldn't be our problem. And guilds shouldn't be put in the position to need to figure out how to solve it - or what to do about it themselves. It's a 3+ month bug that hasn't been fixed yet (nor has any punishment been meted out for clearly violating house rules...so why bother keeping them?) - and given the nature of the sever and human nature, I do understand that the situation is pretty untenable.

[Pint]

the grand standing is real itt

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by Pan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To answer yours: you're a guest here. Follow the house rules. If one of them is not to exploit bugs, don't do it. Leave Dain up if it's a buggy Dain. That's their problem to solve, not yours.

I don't understand why we feel it's our job to solve the GMs problems. It's a really silly problem.

#1)We want them to fix buggy stuff and so we ask them to.
#2)We take matters into our own hands rather than letting GMs handle it by player made agreements that usually involve breaking server rules.
#3)GMs know they are at fault so they don't punish players for breaking server rules.
#4)Because players are killing Dain there is no game breaking urgency by him being left up, therefore, no real problem in the coding.
#5) No problem=no solution.


I'm happy coming up with all the player made agreements that are needed to make this a saner happier world, heck, if you all know me at all you know I'm 100% for them! But they can't include any party knowingly breaking server rules.


All it takes is a GM to say either "yes, Dain is allowed to be killed after a failed ring war even though we know it is an exploitation." or "We will be killing Dain after each war, do not attempt to engage him." until this bug is fixed.

One line of text from a GMs mouth solves all of this.

[Detoxx]

Ringwar compete. Amazing feat considering it was "un-winnable"! Grats Ramptakeguard!