Why no palies?

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(stun breaks mez doesn't it? shadow vortex doesn't).

Stun does not do any damage and hence does not break mez. Neither does Root, which can also be spammed on a mesmerized monster to build hate. Paladins and Shadow Knights are both capable in this respect. The higher-level stun spells (Holy Might and Force) deal damage and hence break mesmerize so you were probably thinking of those. The Shadow Knight's main advantage in terms of hate generation is that it can build more hate for less mana than the Paladin can*, giving it an easier time in fast-paced groups and especially in situations where Clarity isn't available.

I like my Shadow Knight plenty--it's been my main character for going on four years here on P1999. However, I like the Shadow Knight for its versatility. I agree with others that the Paladin offers the more complete defensive package when viewed solely as a tank for normal experience groups. That's its specialty. The Paladin suffers in popularity because most players choose to focus on some other aspect of the game. The Warrior's the better tank for major raid named for endgame-minded players, and the Shadow Knight offers better non-tanking quality of life than either while still being a good group tank or raid off-tank.

*Disease Cloud 10 mana, Clinging Darkness 20, versus Flash of Light 12 mana and Stun 35.

Danth

[Troxx]

Having played all 3 prior to live eq getting muddled up with mudflation and umpteen billion aas ... I will say that from a player's perspective:

-Warrior gets the satisfaction of being "the man" tank taking the point position for raids. Lack of aggro control made the class frustrating to play a times, but at the same time liberating in that aggro was the roll of the dice and out of your direct control other than basic gearing. Once weapon affinity aa's went live, aggro wasn't a huge problem, and it was very satisfying to be a warrior with exceptional aggro. The expectation for groups was low, so when you performed well it was noticed and appreciated. After aggro disc abilities were introduced, the lines for "snap aggro" where knights held the advantaged paved the way for knights getting defensive disciplines ... which ultimately underlining the whole point of the warrior (the net results being knights reigning king for 99% of content). For classic, they are a good balance of dps with tankability. With a group that doesn't suck and good gear, they're very rewarding to play.

-SK was a blast to play. Versatile, mobile, hostile - reasonable dps and feign death was a game changer. Arguably the king of aggro (more so after terrors were added - but even in classic), but did not bring as much to a group as a paladin in other regards. For heavy hitting content (raids vs trying to single group velious lesser raid content vs named) both knights suffer for a lack of defensive compared to warriors.

-Paladin was arguably the least fun to play - but very powerful and rewarding. Aggro is/was easy, healing capability really helps, but in a fast paced group there won't be a ton of extra mana available to really use this heal potential unless you're talking eras that are well beyond the scope of p99. For heavy hitting content (raids vs trying to single group velious lesser raid content vs named) both knights suffer for a lack of defensive compared to warriors.

So why no pallies in p99 (or very few)? They're simply not as fun to play. They are incredibly powerful and useful in good hands, but their personal dps blows ... solo ability is terrible ... and their contributions usually aren't fully appreciated by the community at large even if played well. I'd wager it's a thankless job they do, even when done well.


For eras well beyond p99 (think live once knights got defensive abilities and mudflated aa's/spells), knights really do run circles around warriors most of the time.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree and if I could play I can prove my SK is better than whoever wants to try and prove a paladin is better. I'd even do a vid tutorial.

Take KC basement as an example... with a typical set up (SK, monk puller, enchanter, cleric, rogue, shaman).

Monk pulls 4 mobs from turnkey and only realizes when they charge down the steps into the camp.

SK:-

disease cloud your target before it gets slowed, hit your assist macro...

(enchanter maybe tries an AE mez, or there's a combo of a single mez, cleric roots one, etc...everyone gets out of melee range)

While on your first target you start building aggro on your 2nd target with shadow vortex, then disease cloud your current target again at 50%ish to maintain your aggro.

Even consider a 'wave of enfeeblement' to get initial aggro and as they're mezzed/rooted pull the current target back so that the rogue or anyone else meleeing is out of range of the other 3.

If root or mez breaks on any of the other 3...shadow vortex it.

Disease cloud your current target again.

If #1 is not yet dead, a second shadow vortex on #2 (in line with it being remezzed or rerooted)

First one dies, engage #2 (its going to be more pissed about 2 shadow vortexes than anything anyone else has done to it).

Rinse/repeat on #2 to #3 and #3 to #4.... if anything gets lose just shadow vortex it and retarget your current mob, keeping out of melee range of the mezzed/rooted mobs.

It's that easy, just requires some light mob management to keep everyone else at full health and at worst... you're still the only target requiring heals.





What does a paladin do in that situation? Can he wave of enfeeblement to get initial aggro on 4 mobs? No.

He'll be either stuck trying to root the extras (not having control of where they're standing), FoL'ing out of melee range and perhaps risking a fear/glitch effect, or individually stunning them for aggro (stun breaks mez doesn't it? shadow vortex doesn't).

You have more control over the dismantling of a big pull as a SK, and at the same time allowing your enchanter/cleric/etc some guaranteed sit time instead of worrying that something is going to break and attack them rather than you.

That SK method works at any camp, from narrow corridors to open areas. If you want to retarget quickly, always be facing the other mobs to keep an eye on them, and cycle NPC target (not classic) to apply non-mez breaking aggro to #2/#3/#4 if they need it. You're the group's second enchanter, in a sense - you control the flow of the fights and if done properly it's very efficient and with a clarity it won't require any downtime at all.

(just my 2cp) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

he can cast grp heal for insane agro .
usualy best paladins will break ur mezs using regular stun then chain a 2 one with dd component .

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Arteker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

he can cast grp heal for insane agro

Sounds expensive. Can a monk chain pull and the paladin not be bleeding mana?

[valaka]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sounds expensive. Can a monk chain pull and the paladin not be bleeding mana?

He doesn't have to use group heal. One heal on the puller is enough to grab agro on every mob on the monk, even more than 4. Pally heal > wave of enfeeblement for grabbing multiple mobs off puller.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by valaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He doesn't have to use group heal. One heal on the puller is enough to grab agro on every mob on the monk, even more than 4. Pally heal > wave of enfeeblement for grabbing multiple mobs off puller.

dont need heal we can use the stupid rune wich is even more agro

[valaka]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree and if I could play I can prove my SK is better than whoever wants to try and prove a paladin is better. I'd even do a vid tutorial.

Tell that to your cleric when your in seb and miss your bash then eat a 1100 hp ice comet.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by valaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tell that to your cleric when your in seb and miss your bash then eat a 1100 hp ice comet.

If you're in an area with ice comet capable mobs you tend to get some resist/circle spells on the go. For a MT to be eating full ice comet damage is embarassing, plus most wizard frogs in Seb keel over so quick there's not much time to land one.

[Jaleth]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're in an area with ice comet capable mobs you tend to get some resist/circle spells on the go. For a MT to be eating full ice comet damage is embarassing, plus most wizard frogs in Seb keel over so quick there's not much time to land one.

I remember soloing undead froglok mages in lguk on live as a paladin. Nothing like stun locking those db mobs for the duration of the fight, hardly losing any health.

In groups I was root parking mobs, off healing, controlling the flow of fights on a whim. Even challenged dps classes, shamans, and enchanters to try to pull aggro off me from the beginning of each fight. No one ever could. Even had an experienced shadow knight try, yet couldn't, and I never memorized FoL in my spell bar.

From what I have garnered from your posts Swish, you know your stuff, so I won't debate on what you did as a shadow knight and how skilled you were. Most of us that had played knight classes in classic EQ became experts in the field. I only wish that someday I can be as good on my shadow knight here, as I was on my paladin on live.

[valaka]

He heals the monk on inc.......