120k SK Twink

[Daldaen]

You assume the SK is grouping.

Grouping SK you're largely right. Soloing though, of course you're wrong. Fungi, Haste and Good weapon change how soloing a melee goes, and greatly increases your speed/efficiency.

Even grouping though, having a fungi changes how effective you are in a group. Especially pre-30s.

[Cecily]

I really don't think SK is much more cerebral than a pure melee.

[Danth]

Then odds are you're bad at it. That's okay--no shame. Not every class clicks for every player. I stink on healers for example.

Which means your opinion has genuine value--and I do not mean that as sarcasm. Most Shadow Knight twinks are pretty mediocre. That's exactly why so many of them peter out and quit in the high 40's or low 50's. Twink gear can't carry a player past that point.

Danth

[Tecmos Deception]

Cecily, regarding the value of a fungi on the tank to a group's leveling speed, think of it this way: a fungi on the tank vs not is like clarity on the healer vs not. (15 hp per tick, even sup heal is barely over 2:1 efficient and its worst at lower levels, c is 7 mana per tick)

If you think a group doesn't get significantly better xp when the healer has c than not, you just haven't been paying close enough attention! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Cecily]

I actually don't play one, because looking at their skill set they just aren't versatile enough. All they really are is a low dps tank.

Efficient snap agro spells. That's their only selling point. The taps are expensive and don't heal for much. Snare and fear is all they have for crowd control. The higher end dots are impressive but completely unsustainable on a hybrid's mana pool. Feign death. Low level pet.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah, SK tools always struck me as novelty+convenience more than highly effective (apart from the threat generation).

Might be me just being a bad SK though. My VERY twinked SK only got to 45 I think.

SKs are a bit like wizards though probably. On a fresh server or normal timeline where all melee dps is way, way lower, a shitty pet and the ability to burst dps by burning mana would be pretty sweet.

[Cecily]

I'm genuinely curious how the super good SKs play differently. Being a good tank in a group scenario is about target selection and positioning. It has nothing to do with skill sets and it's equally relevant to warriors and knights. And actually does require quite a bit of focus and thinking.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm genuinely curious how the super good SKs play differently. Being a good tank in a group scenario is about target selection and positioning. It has nothing to do with skill sets and it's equally relevant to warriors and knights. And actually does require quite a bit of focus and thinking.

Situation awareness is indeed the most important part of the tank job. On the other hand, using all available tools also counts, and makes the difference between a mediocre tank and a good one. I don't know if I'm "super good," but I'm competent, at least. I won't write a comprehensive guide--it's beyond the scope of this thread--but I'll list a few considerations.

--Beyond snap aggro, sustained hate generation on hybrid tanks is both very high and quite consistent. Shamans can spam slow as fast as cooldown allows with no fear of death. However, disease cloud has enough of a cooldown that it, alone, cannot always achieve this.

--Unlike a Warrior, the SK (and Paladin) can build decent aggro on mezzed mobs without breaking mez. Rooted mobs too for that matter. Disease cloud won't do that; it breaks mez and also can break root.

--The SK is the only proper tank with some AE spells. While not high-aggro, it'll outaggro heals and it's invaluable for getting 4 or 5 things on you at the start of a multi-pull.

--If you have a little space to work, you have a short duration fear and quite a good snare: very good for shutting down those complete healing and gating monsters. You'd be surprised how many dungeons allow use of this tactic in perfect safety.

--You have dispell and can pull with it if you want. Nice for getting rid of annoying damage shields in particular.

--Feign is obvious. The Shadow Knight can double as a tolerably decent puller if need be, and sometimes does so even in raids for smaller guilds which don't have brigades of Monks. It's the only tank type with this capability.

--Between invis, feign, fear, and taps, you can sneak around most areas, including most dungeons. Because of this my SK gets more grouping opportunities, especially at desired camps (crypt, etc), than my other tanks ever got. Surprisingly many groups don't bother to clear their tanks down.

--Spell aggro means that the Shaman can keep Torpor running on you without significantly nerfing your threat generation. Heck against heavy-hitters you don't need to turn on attack at all and hence not suck up ripostes. Because of this you will often take less damage against heavy-hitters than a hasted dual-wielding Warrior who isn't in /defensive.

-------------------------------

You're right about the mana costs. One of the nuisances of the Shadow Knight is that it uses necromancer spells that are tuned around the assumption of having mana regen from Lich. Clarity makes a massive difference for the grouping Shadow Knight, far moreso than Haste. The lifetaps get about 50% better in Velious but for now they're a bit weak.

I'll stop there. This post is already long and should suffice for illustrating that there's more to the class than Disease Cloud spam. If you disagree about the importance of anything I mentioned, that's your right. My purpose is not to debate you, but rather to illustrate some options for players who value such things. Not everyone will--and not everyone should play hybrid tanks. I like my Shadow Knight just fine and the class gives good service for everything I ask of it.

Danth

[Roguejm11]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Situation awareness is indeed the most important part of the tank job. On the other hand, using all available tools also counts, and makes the difference between a mediocre tank and a good one. I don't know if I'm "super good," but I'm competent, at least. I won't write a comprehensive guide--it's beyond the scope of this thread--but I'll list a few considerations.

--Beyond snap aggro, sustained hate generation on hybrid tanks is both very high and quite consistent. Shamans can spam slow as fast as cooldown allows with no fear of death. However, disease cloud has enough of a cooldown that it, alone, cannot always achieve this.

--Unlike a Warrior, the SK (and Paladin) can build decent aggro on mezzed mobs without breaking mez. Rooted mobs too for that matter. Disease cloud won't do that; it breaks mez and also can break root.

--The SK is the only proper tank with some AE spells. While not high-aggro, it'll outaggro heals and it's invaluable for getting 4 or 5 things on you at the start of a multi-pull.

--If you have a little space to work, you have a short duration fear and quite a good snare: very good for shutting down those complete healing and gating monsters. You'd be surprised how many dungeons allow use of this tactic in perfect safety.

--You have dispell and can pull with it if you want. Nice for getting rid of annoying damage shields in particular.

--Feign is obvious. The Shadow Knight can double as a tolerably decent puller if need be, and sometimes does so even in raids for smaller guilds which don't have brigades of Monks. It's the only tank type with this capability.

--Between invis, feign, fear, and taps, you can sneak around most areas, including most dungeons. Because of this my SK gets more grouping opportunities, especially at desired camps (crypt, etc), than my other tanks ever got. Surprisingly many groups don't bother to clear their tanks down.

--Spell aggro means that the Shaman can keep Torpor running on you without significantly nerfing your threat generation. Heck against heavy-hitters you don't need to turn on attack at all and hence not suck up ripostes. Because of this you will often take less damage against heavy-hitters than a hasted dual-wielding Warrior who isn't in /defensive.

-------------------------------

You're right about the mana costs. One of the nuisances of the Shadow Knight is that it uses necromancer spells that are tuned around the assumption of having mana regen from Lich. Clarity makes a massive difference for the grouping Shadow Knight, far moreso than Haste. The lifetaps get about 50% better in Velious but for now they're a bit weak.

I'll stop there. This post is already long and should suffice for illustrating that there's more to the class than Disease Cloud spam. If you disagree about the importance of anything I mentioned, that's your right. My purpose is not to debate you, but rather to illustrate some options for players who value such things. Not everyone will--and not everyone should play hybrid tanks. I like my Shadow Knight just fine and the class gives good service for everything I ask of it.

Danth

+1

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Danth

If you have a little space to work, you have a short duration fear and quite a good snare: very good for shutting down those complete healing and gating monsters. You'd be surprised how many dungeons allow use of this tactic in perfect safety.

This is one of the things I always did on my bard. It worked really well except for the times when I feared my mezzed mobs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But I wonder how well it would work at 60; most stuff will be level immune.

Originally Posted by Danth

You have dispell and can pull with it if you want. Nice for getting rid of annoying damage shields in particular.

I think dispell is huge but its the kind of thing that people need to coordinate on. But its hard for me to see what could be better than slamming incoming mobs with 4x Nullify Magics from basically every caster. Shaman mobs will have sow, haste, and tali. Wizards will have shielding and ds. Clerics will cast both heroism and symbol. Stripping all of that nonsense for a few hundred mana seems like a huge win.

Originally Posted by Danth

Feign is obvious. The Shadow Knight can double as a tolerably decent puller if need be, and sometimes does so even in raids for smaller guilds which don't have brigades of Monks. It's the only tank type with this capability.

I don't understand why SKs (and Necros) never pull. Maybe it's just the surplus of monks, but Necros seem straight up fantastic at it, and SKs should be decent. Heck, just summon your shitty little pet and send it in, then FD around the corner and let your group mates tag.

Originally Posted by Danth

One of the nuisances of the Shadow Knight is that it uses necromancer spells that are tuned around the assumption of having mana regen from Lich.

I never thought about it this way, but that makes a lot of sense.