Interesting Class Changes

[fadetree]

Rangers: just give us AM3/EQ of some sort. It's all we need.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rangers: just give us AM3/EQ of some sort. It's all we need.

This is truth. AM3/EQ made the ranger class way more interesting. With a solid weapon set, you could burn Trueshot, and when it ended run in and melee to finish.

[Halius]

Originally Posted by Sadre Spinegnawer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any discussion like this needs to keep in mind, lots of classes get shafted in classic-velious. It's part of the game. The limits of all the classes are designed to incentivize social gameplay.

I like daydreaming too, but the weakness of a class is usually there for a reason, "go be social."

The alternative is every major mmo since everquest, which are all deathly afraid of making customers upset, and so make all classes able to more or less do everything. They should not even be called mmorpg's anymore, frankly. They are massively multiplayer online single-player games.

These are not "flaws." They are design decisions that reward social gaming.

I remember at one fan faire, they had a mock session on "Everquest and solo gaming." It was a joke: there were chairs set up, but no speaker, and no attendees.

It's a design intention to have areas of weakness. IMO, p99 actually already nerfs a lot of that -- bards, monk dps, charm, and a super-reliable invis come to mind. Overpowered, all four, because they erode or allow you to avoid the social design of the game.

Yeah it's funny cause I agree with all of this. I guess I'm just thinking out loud about how I thought it would be cool to have a temporary pet that can do CC. I understand the whole class weakness thing and the need for it so it forces you to be social with others, that is why I was so addicted to EQ when I first played in 2000 and why I still play it today. I guess my choice of the word flaw was wrong, but weakness yes.

[Halius]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

haha why not have a quick summon pet that has heavy amount of Hitpoints, but does no DPs and only taunts, and you can summon more than one!

basically the RolePlay for this pet is that its a linebacker pet that bearhugs mobs and wont let go untnil they have beaten it to death.

Yeah that was my intention I just forgot to include that part in my OP. I was thinking that obviously it wouldn't do any damage, it is literally just there to act as a makeshift CC.

[Daldaen]

You seem to equate classes getting more abilities to EQ becoming a single player game.

Just because classes get abilities doesn't mean they no longer need a healer or DPS or CC.

When druids got better heals in Luclin and PoP, clerics didn't just disappear. When Rangers got decent DPS upgrades finally, Rogues didn't just disappear and Rangers weren't out there soloing group content that groups struggled with.

Even in EQ Live right now, many classes have abilities to FD/Fade, they have abilities to heal themselves slightly and go into burn modes. But they all still retain their core role in groups and raids. Group content still requires a healer, a tank, and some DPS. Though you can fill those with NPCs at times. It isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way through boxing and mercenaries.

Just like this server isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way by playing a caster or a fungi twinked melee.

MMOs are what you make them. You can choose to be social and always group or you can choose to not socialize all the time and solo. Each person should be able to choose whatever they prefer to enjoy the game their way.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Sadre Spinegnawer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The limits of all the classes are designed to incentivize social gameplay.

I like daydreaming too, but the weakness of a class is usually there for a reason, "go be social."

These are not "flaws." They are design decisions that reward social gaming.

It's a design intention to have areas of weakness. IMO, p99 actually already nerfs a lot of that -- bards, monk dps, charm, and a super-reliable invis come to mind. Overpowered, all four, because they erode or allow you to avoid the social design of the game.

Some what you're saying is true, but i don't believe they are inherent design.

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You seem to equate classes getting more abilities to EQ becoming a single player game.

Just because classes get abilities doesn't mean they no longer need a healer or DPS or CC.

When druids got better heals in Luclin and PoP, clerics didn't just disappear. When Rangers got decent DPS upgrades finally, Rogues didn't just disappear and Rangers weren't out there soloing group content that groups struggled with.

Even in EQ Live right now, many classes have abilities to FD/Fade, they have abilities to heal themselves slightly and go into burn modes. But they all still retain their core role in groups and raids. Group content still requires a healer, a tank, and some DPS. Though you can fill those with NPCs at times. It isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way through boxing and mercenaries.

Just like this server isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way by playing a caster or a fungi twinked melee.

MMOs are what you make them. You can choose to be social and always group or you can choose to not socialize all the time and solo. Each person should be able to choose whatever they prefer to enjoy the game their way.

Bingo.

The reason why druids got better heals and rangers could actually be "rangers" and not "3/4 of a warrior with shitty druid spells" was to correct inherent flaws. It was the devs finally realizing that some classes were just better designed, with well defined roles in the game, while other were just behind.

Luclin/PoP with the new spells and AAs did not homogenize everything and made everyone equal. Like Daldaen said, it simply made the ones lacking far behind, well, a little bit less far behind, haha.

That, in my opinion, made the game even more social. When every class has something to bring and can perform relatively well, less people are rejected from groups simply because they're playing what's perceived as the "wrong" class. Look right here, on p99, hybrids are passed up on groups because of the xp penalty, people don't want to group with wizards "their dps suck all they do is sit and xp sponge" and "we need a cleric".

Luclin/PoP improvements fixed a lot of that shit.

[Velerin]

yeah, mages always got the shaft on cc. I never knew why every caster class gets some kind besides mages. Would be nice not to have to burn root nets for every add when solo.
Also mage mana regen always sucked. Can't really lump mod rods with C, canni, lich, harvest, etc. Its more along the line of the necro twitch line. It doesn't help mage self regen at all (cost to summon > mana you get) The only benefit for the solo mage is to keep one on hand for emergencies.
Most play times I cast about 3 spells tops and my mage is the only caster I have that can spare a slot for gate all the time.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Velerin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah, mages always got the shaft on cc. I never knew why every caster class gets some kind besides mages. Would be nice not to have to burn root nets for every add when solo.
Also mage mana regen always sucked. Can't really lump mod rods with C, canni, lich, harvest, etc. Its more along the line of the necro twitch line. It doesn't help mage self regen at all (cost to summon > mana you get) The only benefit for the solo mage is to keep one on hand for emergencies.
Most play times I cast about 3 spells tops and my mage is the only caster I have that can spare a slot for gate all the time.

The way i see it, mages are kind of like the rogues of casters. Sustained DPS with the pet, plus good burst. They can solo, but really shine in groups. So no CC.

[fadetree]

The Ranger issues were actually the result of a killer nerf before the game even went live. Originally much stronger...then they brought out the nerf bat and overamped it because they didn't know shit about nerfing yet. WE ARE MARTYRS.

and not "3/4 of a warrior with shitty druid spells"

3/4? I wish. But I don't want to tank, I just want my archery to be worth a crap. That's all we need.

[Itap]

People who have never played a Mage underestimate the power of their pets. I've been in groups where my pet has killed an add before the rest of the group killed their target.