Whats up with all those lazy clerics ?

[perditionparty]

Originally Posted by Kreylyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm gonna start with some basic info to use as a reference.

A lv 40 cleric with pretty decent gear (read, NOT twinked) is what I'm baseing this info around.

219 wis + gear = mana pool of 1735.

Valor = 90 mana
Symb of Pin = 200 mana
Armor of Faith = 150 mana.

Buff just those on one char = 440 mana (not counting the lost regen from cast times). That's 25% of the mana pool.

Regen of 16 mana with out chanter buff... around (21 mana with) per 6 second tick. Lets say (since OP is chanter) that C1 is buffed on the lv 40 cleric...

440 mana at 21 regen rate = 21 ticks for full mana recover per, or 2 mins 6 sec. Lets just round that to 2 mins cause.... maths hard.

6 players, buff you self first because that's how you set a good timer right?

Buff yourself (25%), buff the chanter (25%) and buff the Tank (25%).... Now you have 25% mana left for the pull, and half the group still left to buff, and need straight 6 mins to med it back.

Complete heal = 400 mana.
Sup heal = 250 mana.
Greater heal = 150 mana.

So a pull comes in after your buff, you had 30 seconds after buffs before your first heal to be cast due to the pull...

Mana pool = aprox 500 with regen.

You currently have the option of...

1 complete heal leaving you with 100 mana... You will not cast another heal with out regening mana. You could cast 1 root at 60 mana, or... you could save that for a heal. What do you do... hrm?

2 Sup heals for 583 hps leaving you with 0 mana... OOM.

3 Forget healing, lets crowd control with the mana you have left.

Lets just say the cleric was "lazy"... and healed only... with option 2.


Fight is over, group wants to pull. You have 30 sec - 1 min before next pull comes in.

You regen 210 mana... . That's not even 1 sup heal.

Chanter gets agro from resist.

Chanter can't stun, root, CC their own mob.

Cleric has to heal.

Tank has taken dmg too... but you can only cast 1 heal on one character.

You regen just enough to cast Sup heal on chanter, finish fight with tank at 30%, chanter alive, mobs dead... cleric OOM.

8.5 mins now for full mana regen. 15 mins now for full mana regen and you buffed the other 3 chars... cuase you dont' want to be a lazy cleric right?

Are you gonna sit and wait for 15 mins for full regen? How many groups do you know that's up for that kind of down time?

So what really happens?

I join a group, I ask... "Any cleric or other buffs I need to know before I start buffing?"

If nothing that is better, or already on... I'll buff the quick... Valor on everyone. AC on those I know who will get hit (tank, cc, puller).

Symbol... is reserved for situational consideration. If the chanter is under level... I'll buff it. If the tank is taking a lot of dmg, I'll buff it. If we are having problems with proper CC and someone is off tanking, I'll buff em. Everyone in the group is not getting symbol unless there is a good reason for it. It's not lazy, it's simply mana conservation for being able to function as anything else in the group.

As an aside, if your not supposed to get hit, you should control your agro so you don't need symbol. (I'm talking dps or other non cc/tanking players). I will heal you to start, and I will communicate to you that you need to stop what your doing to draw agro. Then.. I will stop healing you. One way or another, people who are not supposed to get agro will learn. Death is a good teacher.

First pull immediately after buffing the basics, and I'm generally at 30-40% mana already. The next hour is fighting mana regen vs heals cast for pulls to get back towards 100%... so that when buffs wear off, I can recast them taking up nearly a full mana bar.

2 sup heals or 1 CH and I'm OOm for heals on that first pull.

Or... the entire group waits for regen.

I have a hotkey... "%t rooted, step away!" I use it when asked. Otherwise, my expectation is that the CC in the group know what they are doing, and can do THIER job or can communicate to the group what they need.... Jus sayn.

Can I do CC... sure. If there are other healers in the group, and mana regen ins't as important cause heals are covered, buffs are covered, then... I'll use other things. Stuns, roots, even DD cause why not... you can only hit 100% mana regen, you can't bank extra. I never just sit when 100% mana.

But when there IS a CC in the group... yeah, this lazy cleric expects you to do your jerb. If you CAN'T do your jerb, then at least communicate clearly what you need help with and why. Otherwise, until I'm 100% mana... I'm medn to prepare for that next heal. Cause... that is what a cleric does.

But... that's just my take. I'm sure others will have their own.

Krey

Excellent write up

[criddopher]

Originally Posted by Diogene [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just wanted to share my opinion on this one and possibly gather different opinions

I play enchanter on blue and when I happen to see a cleric in the group, the dude only seems to know one thing : HEALING. Once he is done with that, he simply goes afk, sitting medding, maybe eating burritos. I mean, its pretty rare I get buffs from cleric groupmates as a chanter, and when my charm breaks, I never see any of them trying to stun / root the pet. They act like they were born to HEAL ONLY (maybe rez once in a while).

I remember that Paladin a little while ago : the guy was pulling, CC'ing, tanking, stunning my charm breaks and healing all at the same time. The Pally was truly awesome as he knew how to play his class.

So what the f*ck is wrong is clerics ?

Just... bad luck ?

Oh, yes... I forgot I should have ask em before if they could do a little more than just healing via PM... But I did! And I got this answer from a fellow cleric : I cant CC your freakin pet man, Im busy medding in case tanks are going bad.

I should aslo mention I have all sorts of macros including a "CHARM BREAK" one to let everyone know when this happens

/sigh

In defense of the clerics, often times, unless everyone in the group plays their class well, it's tough to have mana to do the extra things. Although even in the worst case the chanters getting both hp buffs in my grp.. Enchanter is just as important as the tank in most cases.

If the group is running well,and youre not OOM all the time then yeah, cleric should be stunning, nuking, swinging his mace, whatever else to help.

[-TK-]

There's lazy people playing every class, but because of the Cleric's role they probably seem so more often because it encourages a 'lazy' behavior. That being said I don't care what the excuse is, the Enchanter should always have Hero or the like. If the Cleric won't give me Hero or whines about it, he'll be replaced quickly as I usually make my groups. I generally don't ask for Symbol unless I'm really getting beat on and I make sure to offer a Peridot in return as even if they refuse to accept it they usually appreciate the gesture (and you should have plenty of these on you already - I carry a minimum 4 stacks before going out for a grouping session).

Usually by the time charm breaks I'm ready with stun and have Rune and Bedlam up. As far as Clerics rooting and stunning, I rarely find it necessary to have anyone root/stun for me while using global cooldown reset. And I'd prefer that the Cleric focuses on healing me through resists/breaks than messing around with my pet or adds. I also keep Rune on my Clerics as well for when shit hits the fan during a charm break or they get heal aggro from trying to keep me up.

A lot of this of course depends on your level and group configuration and in my experience a Cleric will give you a buff if you ask and he's not constantly out of mana. Every scenario will be different but there are some minimums that should be expected such as Hero or the like. If you're Cleric is sitting constantly full mana (Donal's?) and gives you grief about a buff then you really need to replace or just remember in the future not to group with them (/note). Mages and Wizards shouldn't really need any HP buff but if a Cleric argues that an active Enchanter doesn't then they are ignorant plain and simple. Chances are that if a situation turns bad with multiple mobs and your Enchanter goes down and the other group members aren't quick enough or able to sort it out, you're going to wipe.

As far as the comments go about charming and charm breaks, people on this server are charm-crazy. If you don't have a charmed pet in a group you're a 'bad Enchanter'. People expect it constantly, which I think is fair in most cases, but they don't understand exactly how it works or care that you're mezzing, rooting, casting C & E, and hasting. Just because I'm 60 and charming a level 46 mob, while I have max CHA, there is a still a chance that charm will break sooner than 10-20 minutes. And sometimes there are bad strings of breaks regardless of the mob's level. Some groups aren't patient for the 'right' mob to spawn to pet either or don't understand that you have to Paci half way through a dungeon to get a good pet if they aren't spawning in your area. As an Enchanter you learn the levels of the mobs and how reliable they are when charmed. Others might not know this information as illustrated by the tank pulling a Krup Wizard and saying 'take for pet'. They just know an Enchanter usually has a pet.

tl;dr: Ask by saying 'WMP'; when asking for Symbol put a Peridot in the trade window before they can reply and be conscience of their mana and the group's abilities/flow before asking. If Cleric is being lazy after all considerations, then either replace or make a /note to not group with again if possible. There's always going to be some bad apples out there and my experiences with 'bad' Clerics has been extremely limited.

[skipdog]

Originally Posted by Feanol [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Firstly, Paladins always make a spectacle of themselves casting everything they can. This stems from a well documented need for hybrid classes to overachieve and prove their utility as to distract the group from the fact that they eat an extra big slice of that EXP cake.

Secondly, the sure sign of a good cleric is that they remain inert. The Cleric isn't there to impress you or deal damage or even CC. The cleric is there to meditate to 100% mana and prepare for the worst. The sure sign of a bad cleric is one who's missing meditate ticks by standing to cast spells and burning mana putting HP buffs on casters.

When things get hairy, the "lazy" cleric saves the group. The "active" cleric is responsible for a full wipe since he's 50m after that last Heroic Bond for the freaking Magician...

QFT. Was surprised how far I had to read before hearing some logic.

[QFuzzle]

I've encountered plenty of good clerics.

But there was this one time...

I main a Druid. I was grouped with a Cleric. The group was full and chain pulling. It was a good group. We were killing undead. Mana wasn't an issue. I was dps'ing for the most part. The Cleric kept the heals going, did fine on keeping buffs up, and did some cc management. I recommended he do a little undead nuking since he had spare mana. He told me he just doesn't do that. I was a little irked, asking why, and not receiving a response, but what can I do? I can't force somebody to play a certain way. :P He did well otherwise.

[kaev]

Can't understand why any cleric wouldn't put both hp buffs on an enchanter, the only reason to think about it is to ask the chanter first whether he's already got better than you can give and if so what're the timers.

There are a lot of attentive and well played enchanters on p99 (some terrible ones as well, ofc, but nearly all the bad ones seem to give up before L40,) It's rare that either my paladin or my cleric lands a stun before the chanter does on a pet break, OTOH it's not wasted mana to cast because when I do land mine first the chanter needs the help.

If you're not the puller, the tank, or CC not only do you not need an AC buff, in most groups you shouldn't need a HP buff (if your cleric is 52+ you'll get HB anyway.) AC buffs are a waste of mana on int casters, even when they're CC, making their tissuepaper "armor" a bit shinier does not change the fact that they're going to get smacked and smacked hard when a mob gets on them, stun and root will save them where an AC buff will do nothing.

Inattentive clerics are bad, and they should feel bad about themselves. It's not possible to be a competent anything in EQ without paying attention, but an inattentive cleric is a tank's worst nightmare.

That one rogue, you know, the one who never asks for any buffs except str & haste, the one who almost never gets hit and yet still murders the hell out of the mobs, yeah, that one... write his name down and invite him to your groups at every opportunity. Seriously people, how fucking difficult is it to let the tank get agro and/or wait for root before your first BS? why are you up on top of that rooted mob taking agro from the warrior? do you even evade bro? When stuck grouping with one of the 5000 or so "rouge with epic" idiots on this server, try to gently urge them not to be so bad by not healing them unless you're at full mana and have nothing better to do. (The good rogue, that one guy, he'll never be less than competent at any class because he pays attention. Learn who his alts are and put them all on your friend list,)

@OP:
In 3+ years I've only grouped with a few bad clerics here. When you find yourself grouped with one, first try to figure out if they just don't know better. Talk to them, be friendly rather than accusing and mix a bit of advice and/or some specific requests into the conversation. If that's well received you've probably made a new friend as well as improved the play of a groupmate, if they get hostile or rude just avoid them in future.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by QFuzzle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've encountered plenty of good clerics.

But there was this one time...

I main a Druid. I was grouped with a Cleric. The group was full and chain pulling. It was a good group. We were killing undead. Mana wasn't an issue. I was dps'ing for the most part. The Cleric kept the heals going, did fine on keeping buffs up, and did some cc management. I recommended he do a little undead nuking since he had spare mana. He told me he just doesn't do that. I was a little irked, asking why, and not receiving a response, but what can I do? I can't force somebody to play a certain way. :P He did well otherwise.

Sounds like he did his job. Mana is never an issue until you're out of it. If you're already chain pulling and the patch healer is already dpsing, how is having the cleric burn mana on nukes going to improve things? The mobs will die faster for a couple pulls and then the puller will pull faster and your healer will be oom before you know it, now everyone is waiting around for the cleric to med up.

[Rararboker]

Well I have never played a cleric until recently. Always played a tank on live (and then wizard here on p99) so I am familiar with the basics of what a cleric should do. I auto buff the tank-chanter and offer it to anyone else if they ask. Send them out in chunks so I don't go OOM just buffing my group of 5 all at once. I pretty much exclusively play the character with a RL friend who plays a chanter and he keeps a pet charmed at all times. I got the stun maneuver down for when charm breaks.

But I am wondering, are there any other little things I should know about playing a cleric?

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sounds like he did his job. Mana is never an issue until you're out of it. If you're already chain pulling and the patch healer is already dpsing, how is having the cleric burn mana on nukes going to improve things? The mobs will die faster for a couple pulls and then the puller will pull faster and your healer will be oom before you know it, now everyone is waiting around for the cleric to med up.

Yep, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Only time my cleric burns mana on nukes is solo/duo/trio vs. undead or the zone's camped to hell and back and the group just can't get enough mobs to use up my mana on heals.

[Zombiehasslehoff]

Originally Posted by Rararboker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But I am wondering, are there any other little things I should know about playing a cleric?

One thing that few clerics seem to know is that you can heal with your hp buff and sometimes it's more efficient than regular heals . For example bravery heals 114hp for 70 mana, Healing heals for about 90hp by the time you get bravery for 60 mana.


The only problem with this is that it's hard to get good timer on the buff.