The troubles with modern MMO's...

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

my only problem is they are not classic everquest.

Verses of Victory

[Byrjun]

Originally Posted by Xer0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Im going to have to disagree with the itemization; There are very few uniquely modeled items in EQ and those are usually very specifically geared to a particular class, or only usable by a select few.

I disagree with your disagreement.

Somehow, EverQuest made items more recognizable than any other MMO even with extremely limited resources.

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more. And that's not counting all the highly recognizable single pieces like Mithril. You can usually even figure stuff out if it's undyed. Leather pants on a priest class are probably Gatorscale, plain chain chest is usually a fungi depending on class and the rest of their gear, etc.

I often compare EQ to DAoC since it came out a couple years after EQ, and marks the point where a lot of things started going wrong with MMOs (even though I still love DAoC).

DAoC had some really beautiful armor textures for the era (2001):

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But could you recognize what any of that stuff was? Nope. Only if it was class specific:

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That guy's a Warrior. The problem with this class specific "epic" armor was even though it looked amazing, it was inferior to high end crafted sets, which you needed if you wanted to max your stats for pvp. And the crafted sets all had the "generic" textures like the ones above. Plus you could dye anything any color.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Byrjun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree with your disagreement.

Somehow, EverQuest made items more recognizable than any other MMO even with extremely limited resources.

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more. And that's not counting all the highly recognizable single pieces like Mithril. You can usually even figure stuff out if it's undyed. Leather pants on a priest class are probably Gatorscale, plain chain chest is usually a fungi depending on class and the rest of their gear, etc.

Except all of these used EXACTLY the same texture only in different color. Warriors Crafted and Warriors Indicolite use exactly the same texture only in different color. Bronze and Fine Steel was also exactly same texture. Until Velious special textures, there were only 3 sets of textures per race. The only reason these sets were recognizable is because there were so few of them. If you saw a Light Blue Plate - you new that only 1 set in game is a plate of this color. But this situation only lasted until more sets started to appear, and armor coloring.

WoW by contrast had dozens of different of textures right of the start, which is now up to a hundred. WoW does use different approach - the texture looks the same for all races, rather than race specific like in EQ, but at the same time total number of textures far greater.

Same goes for famous weapons - they were only famous when there were too few of them. No one will needs/wants SSOY when Velious is out (I doubt anyone uses it now in the proper level range). After 2-3 expansions there is going to be so many unique items around you won't ever remember them all.

And as far as WoW "random" green items go - they are basically WoW version of bronze and fine steel you had in EQ, which during early days some people still used all way up to the dragon raids. During WoW early days there too were famous items (Sulfuros anyone?), but 3 expansions down the road they were forgotten cause they became obsolete, just like EQ epics will get first matched with Velious and then obsolete with Luclin. Its natural. The game HAS TO progress. If there is no progression it will die.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I always thought WoW had too much art. Like in EQ usually any seemingly unique content was something important. A named mob? Special. A cave? A dungeon(tbh once Kunark launched even in EQ, I felt they started to break this particular rule). In wow, everything had a name, nothing seemed to matter.

Anytime I went someplace cool, it was just as important as a flat open single poly in EQ.

So nothing really seemed to matter to me..

This is the most ridiculous complain about WoW I ever heard. So the game sucked cause zones were not blunt square boxes with no land features what so ever like West Karana? There are thousands named npcs in EQ which do absolutely nothing. Every guard in every city is named, instead of being just "a guard" even though there is no quest attached to him and he doesn't even respond to hails. And in WoW this is a reason for complain? WoW has shit load more uniqueness in this regard than EQ ever did.

[Dunes]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WoW has shit load more uniqueness in this regard than EQ ever did.

I think most people would agree that WoW (Vanilla WoW) was a good game. Sure, I tend to agree that the oversaturated color palette and over-the-top armor/weapon models and textures were geared to appeal to a younger audience and gain mass market appeal. I also admit to having enjoyed playing through Vanilla WoW, and discovering all the hidden flourishes the developers hid away in the game.

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem). Done with Elwynn Forest? Move to Westfall. Done there? Move to Duskwood. Once done there, move to Redridge. Etc etc. The fact that you could solo through all of the content using quest hubs was my other complaint. It played a little too much like a single player game, although admittedly, its one I would have bought and played if it were a single player game [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway, the original intent of this thread was not to debate the merits of WoW vs EQ. It was meant to look at the evolution of MMO's after vanilla WoW and try to understand why so many of us keep coming back to EQ after 15 years [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[pogs4ever]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So the game sucked cause zones were not blunt square boxes with no land features what so ever like West Karana?

actually, the Karanas are one of the reasons I love EQ so much; while people who actually enjoy those zones is a minority. It makes the world seem realistic and vast in that it should mostly be empty space; and the first trip across antonica is one that most of us remember. It made finding the ogre shaman camp actually feel like you found something and want to tell your friends, and go check out. Theme park style of new mmo's killed this feeling for me.

other than that, risk/reward/thinking outside the box/rate of progress is why i like eq>everything else.

also, i loved playing original EQ when like everlore was the place to get info, and it was half false (i really used to believe in the lake rathe monster) and therefore you had to just figure it out yourself, nowadays there is a guide for everything.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think most people would agree that WoW (Vanilla WoW) was a good game. Sure, I tend to agree that the oversaturated color palette and over-the-top armor/weapon models and textures were geared to appeal to a younger audience and gain mass market appeal. I also admit to having enjoyed playing through Vanilla WoW, and discovering all the hidden flourishes the developers hid away in the game.

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem). Done with Elwynn Forest? Move to Westfall. Done there? Move to Duskwood. Once done there, move to Redridge. Etc etc. The fact that you could solo through all of the content using quest hubs was my other complaint. It played a little too much like a single player game, although admittedly, its one I would have bought and played if it were a single player game [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway, the original intent of this thread was not to debate the merits of WoW vs EQ. It was meant to look at the evolution of MMO's after vanilla WoW and try to understand why so many of us keep coming back to EQ after 15 years [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well WoW graphical style is a taste thing (not the biggest fan but I love Blood Elves), but overall - gameplay is more important. Out of all the games I saw, I still claim Luclin models as #1 favorites (for most races). As far as WoW solo everything - that was the designers original intent - game supports all modes - solo, group and raid. And I actually like this approach. How many people in EQ DESPERATELY tried and still trying to solo despite the fact that game is not designed this way (and some clases clearly OP in this regard over others)? Nothing wrong with WoW offering you 3 types of gameplay to choose from. This is freedom. If I have 4 hours of free time to burn - I do raids, if Only have 30 min, I will run a small solo quest. works great for my limited time.

As far as quest guiding goes- well yeah having quest goal clearly marked on your map kind of ridiculous, and defeats the point of actually searching for the quest. But giving players general suggestion - you should go to zone X next cause it suits your level range is fine, cause otherwise players will do what they do in EQ - they go to alla or to the forums and start asking where is the best place to XP at lev X. Same crap.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Originally Posted by pogs4ever [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

actually, the Karanas are one of the reasons I love EQ so much; while people who actually enjoy those zones is a minority. It makes the world seem realistic and vast in that it should mostly be empty space; and the first trip across antonica is one that most of us remember

my fondest memory of classic was running my troll SK (first and only toon) to south karana. wading through the swamp, trudging through feerrott jungle, climbing over rathe mountains, swimming through lake rathe, and bolting across the plains to arrive at a gigantic tree house filled with human-sized birdmen.

fucking beautiful.

[phacemeltar]

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think most people would agree that WoW (Vanilla WoW) was a good game.

no pet weapons = shit
no class specific armor at lower levels = shit
so much underdeveloped area = shit
total ripoff of the best selling mmo at the time = shitty move


wow.. i just dont get why people say its so good (although the pvp system was pretty cool at some points) i remember thinking they were going to add actual content to the game-world during xpac, and being disappointed when they only added a new island + a few mobs and called it a day.

[tanknspank]

Originally Posted by Byrjun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more.

I love things being this recognizable. And that there's not an overwhelming number of them so you can actually know most items. It makes them stand out more than if there's 10 similar variations of gear for X class/slot.

Early WoW had this in some limited fashion. There's some weapons/shields and a few armor pieces that stood out and those were awesome, but a lot of the rest was very forgettable. And I'm not just talking about random greens. So many blues, or even purples, look the same as those random greens, or have differences small enough that they don't stand out.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except all of these used EXACTLY the same texture only in different color.

Limited texture area was a limitation of 1999. When EQ was developed they had to be very restricted in how much texture they used for global things (like PC gear/models/pets) as these had to be loaded in all zones. WoW came about 5.5 years later which (especially at that time) meant massive improvements in both software techniques and hardware.

I'm not saying EQ shouldn't have more textures, particularly as expansions go on, but if they are sparingly used and with unique colors, that would help items stay recognizable.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WoW by contrast had dozens of different of textures right of the start, which is now up to a hundred. WoW does use different approach - the texture looks the same for all races, rather than race specific like in EQ, but at the same time total number of textures far greater.

Same goes for famous weapons - they were only famous when there were too few of them.

I think WoW wasted too many texures/models on greens and at the same time had too many generic blue+ items. With fewer blue+ items and making the greens look the same and more bland it would have made the blue+ items more recognizable.

I feel fewer, more famous items makes for more interesting itemization than a wide variety of forgettable ones. I remember replacing my combine weapon with a SSoY on my warrior, or later getting a Primal then a BoC on my warrior. I remember progressing from Gossamer Robe to FBR to Oracle to Cryosilk on my wizard. I remember my epics, and Shissar bane, my first FBSS, GEBs, brown chitin protector, my Ifir, and a dozen other memorable gear changes.

I played a lot of WoW. In fact I've played WoW for more years (and more /played hours) than I did EQ. And yet I have far fewer memories of the gear I've used there, most of it blending into a forgettable stream of slight upgrades.

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem).

This has been my main problem with WoW and pretty much every MMO since. EQ had the freedom to be unexpected. The lack of instancing means everyone else indirectly adds change to your play session. What camps are open, what your group comp will be, etc. The camp model in a way makes each camp be its own mini dungeon with its own quirks, dangers, items. In Guk alone I could play 6 nights in a row and be in a different camp. Then there's Unrest and HHP, just off the top of my head.

In WoW at a given level range I was always on one of 2-3 paths and repeatedly doing the same 2-3 dungeons that consisted of the same rooms, in the same order, with the same bosses that we fought exactly once per run. And because questing was so superior to grinding mobs it was always more beneficial to follow the tracks than just roam, exploring and finding interesting little camps to do. Everything was always ordered too. There was no braving the dangers of a trip from FP to Lake Rathe for the Gnoll camp, or to Unrest across DC.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as WoW solo everything - that was the designers original intent - game supports all modes - solo, group and raid.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I do think all play modes should be viable. The problem was that unless you did dungeons, grouping was counterproductive.

All the limitations it set (quest level, quest sequence, no quest items dropping unless you are on the quest) added a lot of overhead to playing with others outside dungeons to the point that you were better off soloing. If you ran into someone, odds were you were on different stages of the quest chain and one of you had to help the other catch up if you wanted to meaningfully group. If your partner had to AFK for a bit you couldn't just keep loot a few extra quest items and hand them to them when they got back. If your partner was 1 level lower you could end up getting a quest they couldn't yet.

I do think an ideal MMO supports all playstyles, but the rewards from raids/group should be commensurate with the overhead in people wrangling they take. For raids this is never an issue because they typically take place at max level (xp being meaningless) and are typically the source of BiS gear. Grouping however is an activity that needs to happen side-by-side with soloing both at max level and on the way there. And you can't just say "ok, grouping will give good gear, soloing will give good XP" because then both styles of players will feel forced into having to do the thing they don't favor (due to time, likes or whatever).

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you should go to zone X next cause it suits your level range is fine, cause otherwise players will do what they do in EQ - they go to alla or to the forums and start asking where is the best place to XP at lev X. Same crap.

More info like that is fine. EQ however has self-correcting mechanisms for that - lack of instancing / relatively slow respawn / group composition. Zone X might be the best XP in a level range, but if it's over-camped you'll actually get better XP in a non-best zone with plentiful mobs to kill. Or that best XP might require having CC or harmony, and your group doesn't so you find a place that yields better XP due to less risk/problems in handling the camp with the classes you have.

Originally Posted by indiscriminate_hater [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

my fondest memory of classic was running my troll SK (first and only toon) to south karana. wading through the swamp, trudging through feerrott jungle, climbing over rathe mountains, swimming through lake rathe, and bolting across the plains to arrive at a gigantic tree house filled with human-sized birdmen.

fucking beautiful.

I have a couple like that. The first time I was ~5 in ECom (which was super-crowded as it was a new server) and one of our group members led us to Misty Thicket. Another one was (a different character/server) a group member telling us about the gnolls in Lake Rathe and us undertaking the journey there for the loots (staff and skull!) and uncrowded XP. Then from there we eventually moved on to KFC as well.