Rogues

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Sckrilla [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasn't aware BS mechanics have been changed several times, where is this located at? These parses were March/April 2012ish however so definitely quite some time ago.

Well it was tweaked several times in a short time frame after kunark launch. We had a month or so for example BS were hitting for max dmg an absurd amount of the time. To be fair I quit for a year and a half in the middle so it has prolly been the same for a very long time now.

^^this; hence why I said we actually saw a significant decrease in DPS when switching in the RB for the TS for backstabs.

There is no way this is correct. Slowing down 1x mh swing per backstab in order to add 3 dmg to backstab swing is going to be well worth it all day.

Also is RSSS really better OH when using thorn MH than RB? The ratio is slightly better, but Ragebringer give +40 to attack. 40 attack is not a ton, so I can see it being better, but I would guess this is almost a wash.

[Yinikren]

No, the mainhand damage bonus alone covers the 3 damage difference off backstabs if you choose to weapon swap. You guys severely underrate the mainhand damage bonus, which is the same reason weapons like a Revultant Whip get made fun of, despite being so fast that the ratio literally does not matter because you are swinging almost twice a second. Why the hell do you think the mosscovered branch got nerfed?

You basically hit a point where you are attacking so fast that your mainhand damage bonus makes up for (and exceeds) any damage you would get from wielding a higher damage, slower weapon. Check on the velious forums about everyone bitching about hitting for minimum damage a LOT during boss battles because of mob AC - Trust me, you'd much rather be hitting for minimum damage at 7 delay than at 12.5. You got babied with low AC Kunark mobs.

Let's do some maths. A rogue at 100% haste mainhands a Thornstinger and then a Ragebringer to test his mainhand damage.

With the Ragebringer, he swings 48 times a second (600/12.5). Of those swings, 60% ((240skill+60level/500)=.6) are double attacks. Accuracy at max weapon skill on an even con mob is around 66%. Your minimum mainhand hit will always be 12 (Damage bonus of 11+1 for connecting) So, for the numbers:

48+60%= approximately mainhand 76 swings per minute. Around 50 (66% accuracy) of those land. So just for turning on autoattack, your Ragebringer does a guaranteed 600 damage a minute from your damage bonus alone.

Now he mainhands a Thornstinger, which gets 66 swings a minute, or 105 with double attack factored in. That's 69 average hits per minute for 828 guaranteed damage. See where I am going here?

That's guaranteed, unmitigated damage. You can't hit lower than 12, so on these bosses where it actually matters, the faster your hits, the better off you are in the long run.

For funsies, ranger math works out to about 1068 damage per minute just from the mainhand damage bonus when wielding a revultant whip.

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So just for turning on autoattack, your Ragebringer does a guaranteed 600 damage a minute from your damage bonus alone.

That's 69 average hits per minute for 828 guaranteed damage. See where I am going here?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a 228 damage gap based purely on delay. Now call me crazy, but that's not much. Factor in the higher POTENTIAL hits from a 15 dmg weapon on regular melee attacks and backstabs and it's pretty easy to see that RB is the superior weapon, most of the time.

TS is a tanking and solo weapon. Every Velious parse I've seen with TS main hand has been disastrous.

[Yinikren]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a 228 damage gap based purely on delay. Now call me crazy, but that's not much. Factor in the higher POTENTIAL hits from a 15 dmg weapon on regular melee attacks and backstabs and it's pretty easy to see that RB is the superior weapon, most of the time.

TS is a tanking and solo weapon. Every Velious parse I've seen with TS main hand has been disastrous.

Every time a RB hits for 70, a TS is hitting almost twice for 50. Unless you're hitting in the upper half of your damage table 50% of the time or more, TS is going to outdamage in the long run.

The 3 damage on a RB doesn't make as much as a hit difference as you would think.

Max hit formula is:
((Offense+STR)/100)*WeaponDamage+DamageBonus+1=Maxhit.
So, a 60 Rogue with 255 STR:
(252+255)/100=5.07.
5.07*X+12=MaxHit. Replace X with weapon damage.

Rage should hit for 88 max. Thorn hits for 72.84 which may or may not round.

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every time a RB hits for 70, a TS is hitting almost twice for 50. Unless you're hitting in the upper half of your damage table 50% of the time or more, TS is going to outdamage in the long run.

The 3 damage on a RB doesn't make as much as a hit difference as you would think.

Max hit formula is:
((Offense+STR)/100)*WeaponDamage+DamageBonus+1=Maxhit.
So, a 60 Rogue with 255 STR:
(252+255)/100=5.07.
5.07*X+12=MaxHit. Replace X with weapon damage.

Rage should hit for 88 max. Thorn hits for 72.84 which may or may not round.

I don't think anyone is arguing for normal hits that thorn is not better. 3dmg for backstabs makes an appreciable difference. I don't know the exact formula for backsta and ts been tweaked a number of times on the server. We are talking small differences here anyway, but thorn stinger is sweet and no one will convince me otherwise. It's almost as sweet as burning rapier.

[Juevento]

Cecily must play one of those lucky rogues that doesn't miss half their backstabs and always hits for max dmg.

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by harnold [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There isnt much skill involved and in general doesnt require a brain. I am thinking it might be a class for heavy alcoholics, children, elderly, or disabled.

I think you are talking about Wizard players in a group. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.][You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Yinikren]

Backstab and mainhand damage both comprise about 40% of your melee dps with your offhand coming in at around 20%. That's why 3 weapon damage is borderline negligible when it comes to back stabs, since the ratio makes up for it via mainhand damage.

Also, weapon delay gets goofed a bit when you swap to a high damage mainhand for a backstab, and doesn't reset until after the next swing. If you swap to an efreeti war spear (15/40? I am at work) for a backstab, then swap back to a TS, your next mainhand swing occurs at 40 delay, not 18, losing you out on dps.

[Yinikren]

I told you before, you are severely underestimating mainhand damage and the damage bonus from having an 18 delay mainhander.

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I told you before, you are severely underestimating mainhand damage and the damage bonus from having an 18 delay mainhander.

You still get that delay on every other swing. The only question is, is that extra delay on 1 swing worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on a backstab swing. You really think giving dropping delay by 7 for a single swing in the RSSS case is worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on backstab?