EverQuest Next: Landmark

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You folks know this game is in alpha and it's already pay to win, right? Not even Planetside 2-level Pay2NotGrind, it's full blown 'pay US dollars for in game advantages'.

Don't get me wrong, a lot about this looks great, but I hope you enjoy having your discipline insulted by a coercive price model.

How's this? What's going on now is testing for alpha, and none of the stuff we're doing right now is going to translate into the free game. You're paying to play early, not for ingame advantages. The closest thing to an honest advantage you get is the 10% boost to resource gathering, but that's Pay2NotGrind, as you describe it, as all it does is lower the grind requirement.

I am just curious how it is you justify this being called pay to win? In the first point, it's kind of funny that you assign such a model given games like this and Minecraft don't have a winning category (See: www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7YjMW5C-uI&t=9m40s). Secondly, the only thing you purchased is early access into a testing alpha, which is no different than the hundreds of other games like that, including Prison Architect, Planetary Annihilation, Rust, etc., the pay2notgrind ring, and a bunch of cosmetic items.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How's this? What's going on now is testing for alpha, and none of the stuff we're doing right now is going to translate into the free game. You're paying to play early, not for ingame advantages. The closest thing to an honest advantage you get is the 10% boost to resource gathering

Some of the rewards are tangible in-game items and persist after Alpha and Beta into the launch game, and you are absolutely paying for ingame advantages:

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Pay to Win is justified somewhat in this case because people who pay cash are going to have considerably greater abilities than those who do not. Trailblazers will be more efficient and effective crafters and gatherers, with less impetus to buy resources from other people in their little RMAH. No, it's not the most offensive Pay2Win ever, but it also can't be lumped into the same league has a more purely Pay2NotGrind game.

'Win' in the context of a sandbox game refers to advantages, luxuries, extra abilities. In a pay to not grind environment, all features are available to everyone; you're simply paying to access them more expediently. In this situation, a non-paying player can never gain the abilities of a Trailblazer, that is, superior efficiency.

Listen, I think this looks really cool, and I'm getting one of these Founder's Packs because I think I will really enjoy it and in spite of my own good sense, I can't wait for a beta invite. This is definitely a valid criticism, and it's one thing I don't like.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some of the rewards are tangible in-game items and persist after Alpha and Beta into the launch game, and you are absolutely paying for ingame advantages:

...

Pay to Win is justified somewhat in this case because people who pay cash are going to have considerably greater abilities than those who do not. Trailblazers will be more efficient and effective crafters and gatherers, with less impetus to buy resources from other people in their little RMAH. No, it's not the most offensive Pay2Win ever, but it also can't be lumped into the same league has a more purely Pay2NotGrind game.

All of which are craftable in game with very little work. I spent 5 hours playing today and I got to having the top end items in the game, with relative ease. If you think the fact that you get these out of the gate is "paying to win", you're an idiot. This is standard Free to Play marketing. I don't like it, I have bashed other games on this very forum for it, but it isn't pay to win. Paying to win is when certain items that are specifically overpowered are locked out of general use unless paying with real world cash, and produce effects that cannot, in any other way, be met. If the same effects can be met in other ways, it's simply a free to play model. It's not as if you pay $50 bucks and you get the Golden Pick of World Rending that can mine exclusive material that can make the top end items that no one else can do without purchasing the Golden Pick of World Rending.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Win in the context of a sandbox game refers to advantages, luxuries, extra abilities.

win·ning ˈwiniNG/ adjective
adjective: winning; superlative adjective: winningest

1.gaining, resulting in, or relating to victory in a contest or competition.

This game isn't a competition, and it isn't a contest. You're attaching your own connotative subjective interpretation that is simply silly. You can't win if there is nothing to win at. The only way you can win is if you put in your head that there is some imaginary contest between who builds the biggest dildo house. But such a contest is yours, and yours alone, and has nothing to do with the design of the game.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a pay to not grind environment, all features are available to everyone; you're simply paying to access them more expediently. In this situation, a non-paying player can never gain the abilities of a Trailblazer, that is, superior efficiency.

In what way? The void network can be accessed by any player that constructs a vault. The band that gives you a boost to critical craft success does not elevate the item beyond a stat that another player could not get by making numerous more crafts. Again, it's about saving time. Have the band? You need to craft the item fewer times to get the maximum stat allocation. Don't have it? You may need to make more to get the maximum stat allocation.

In no way does the band make it so you can create items of a power that another player cannot make themselves if they take the time to do it. That's the essence of F2P boosts, it's the same as experience boosts, it is the same as the XP pots being sold on this server for the Pantheon thing: It cuts down on the time it would take to achieve the same result other people take longer to do. That is not pay to win, and it is irresponsible to try to label it as such.

[Lune]

Right, you're going to keep picking at semantics and keep being a fanboy, and I'm going provide intellectually honest criticism of something I am also excited about. If you can't discern the differences between the coercion inherent in this system, and the one in, say, Planetside 2, that's your problem.

You're taking just as much of a connotative, subjective interpretation of these pricing models as I am. Bottom line, you're paying money for advantages over other players. That's not a statement about what kind of advantages, or how decisive those advantages are, it is what it is. It's not particularly heinous, and I never said it was.

Also note their EQNL cash shop is meant to include players selling resources to each other for station cash/real currency, so add that to your perspective when one player produces resources 10% faster than another.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, you're going to keep picking at semantics and keep being a fanboy, and I'm going provide intellectually honest criticism of something I am also excited about.

You're slandering and trying to make a response to your supposed "intellectually honest criticism" seem less valid because you have no real response to being simply wrong. You said that this game was something that included winning. It does not. There is no way you can win. I do not say this out of being a fan of EverQuest, and pretty much everyone in this forum is, sorry to disappoint you. I say it because it is a fact, this genre of game does not have any form of "winning" in it, other than achieving goals you make for yourself.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you can't discern the differences between the coercion inherent in this system, and the one in, say, Planetside 2, that's your problem.

If you are so badly studied on the history of MMOs and game development that you can't understand the different between F2P systems and Pay To Win systems, you have the issue.

Not everything that rewards a preorder is a pay-to-win, or rewards a kickstar, or an alpha access. So long as you dodge the facts that I presented, including but not limited to the fact that everything a Trailblazer can produce can be matched by a Founder or later, a free to play member, by spending more time. You do not get the Super Golden Pickaxe of World Rending that can break down exclusive material which can then be sold or used to craft any item in the game, and no one else who didn't purchase it cannot mine the same. Your progression through the game, the speed at which you mine and can build your top end pickaxe, is accelerated, just as an XP boost accelerates your progression through League, DOTA, EQ Live, etc.

But you know, why argue that? Why not just slander my argument and make it seem like it is irrelevant?

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're taking just as much of a connotative, subjective interpretation of these pricing models as I am. Bottom line, you're paying money for advantages over other players.

I purchased a game the day it comes out. I have an advantage over you who buys the game a week later. Is this an advantage? Of course. Is it an unfair advantage? No. Because if you play more than I do, and you make up for that lost week of potential, you can achieve the exact same I can. This is no different. Trailblazers will have an advantage, Founders will have an advantage, but Pay-To-Win is not synonymous with advantage. Sorry for thinking you would understand this basic difference in the word advantage between these two systems, but bringing that up in your semantic argument, clearly you did not.

You pay money in League, in DOTA, in EQ Live, in most SoE games, in plenty of others games, to cut down on the grind in terms of XP. But that's not what this game has, what this game has are resources, and items. So the free to play bonus, as seen in pretty much every other big multiplayer game that has some form of progression in it, is one of gathering more resources, and needing to expend less of them (more critical success) to achieve the best progression. If you lack this, and play the game enough, awesome, you can do just as well as a Trailblazer. That is a Free To Play model, not a Pay-To-Win one.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not a statement about what kind of advantages, or how decisive those advantages are, it is what it is. It's not particularly heinous, and I never said it was.

I never said you said it was. It doesn't matter about the advantages, so long as the output of the advantaged player can be matched by an player without that advantage for more work. Sure, the more brutal it is, the more nasty it is, but that doesn't suddenly bump it into pay to win, that's degrees of free to play. These are categorically different systems.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also note their EQNL cash shop is meant to include players selling resources to each other for station cash/real currency, so add that to your perspective when one player produces resources 10% faster than another.

First I will ask where this was confirmed. Everything I have seen pass /r/EQNext, and the EQNext Landmark website has said what you sell on the EQN marketplace is your custom designed structures that can then be integrated into other player's structures, which can then be sold off and you get a kickback from those sales.

Secondly, I will again emphasize the central point here, that even if you can mine 10% faster, you pay to grind less. You pay to have to do less to get the same reward. But that isn't paying to win. This is you appealing to the idea that being able to harvest huge amounts of resources is the equivalent of winning, and if that is how you see it, fine, but that's your perspective and your objective that is being won. What this means is that you have an advantage, and for other players to achieve the same as you in the market place, they need to spend more time to achieve the same result. The same as spending more time to reach level 60, the same result, without an experience potion.

That is not now, nor will it ever be, pay to win. That is very clearly a free to play model.

Edit: I am going to get back to work. You may have the last word if you wish, I couldn't care any less. The point has been made, and anything from here on out is going to be the same bullshit repeated. People passing through can decide whether accelerating one's progress counts as a pay to win or free to play model. The game is good, and I am not in any way gimped from building a bigger dick castle than Trailblazers, or getting the best gear than a Trailblazer. I'm getting back to my research, STATA awaits.

[a_gnoll_pup]

Originally Posted by triad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

why are you still talking?

Because I am entitled to my opinion.

[Grimfan]

I figured I could post this from their Coming Soon portion of their Alpha FAQ. I will bold the material that is relevant to discussion:

Coming Soon
Our intention is to get all of this stuff working before we go into Closed Beta. (Closed Beta is the next stage of our testing where we hand-invite people to join you Alpha folks. Open Beta beyond that is where we just open the game to anyone that wants to play.)

• Combat (vs. Hazard NPCs) – Yup! Monsters. Danger. Risk. Beware!
• Health & Endurance – Right now, you can’t die. Don’t get used to it!
• Damage, Death and the Death Penalty – See? Not kidding. Weesa gonna die!
• Underground Biomes – Underground is pretty much undeveloped right now. The caverns aren’t in and we haven’t separated the resources out into tiers of depth. That’s all coming soon and is in-progress.
• Guilds – Self-explanatory.
• Groups – Self-explanatory.
• Friends/Contact window
• Marketplace Offerings- We’re doing our Free-to-Play strategy a lot different this time around. We intend to very much be the good guys in our industry. Nearly everything that we sell for Station Cash will also be earnable within the game. And we’re putting a lot of faith into Player Studio also. We’ll define our strategy to you in a lot more detail as Alpha progresses.
• Tool progression – A bunch of this is in the game already, but we’re going to be changing it pretty constantly as we test and get feedback from you. Don’t expect this to be complete. It’s not. It will change often, but we’ll work hard to keep you informed of how and why.
• Map – The map is the backbone of Landmark and it’s going to be getting a ton of features. It’s how you find friends, locations that interest you, communities that want to build what you want to build and more. We’re going to put MAJOR effort into it soon.
• Buff UI – We don’t yet have any way to show you a unified vision of the various stat bonuses and abilities that you gain through progression and gear. Coming soon.
• In-game Mail
• Notification display and tray (mail, time, fps)
• Item linking (add to chat)
• Collaborations – This is a structure we’re creating to allow easy and simple co-op building between players. Right now, you can set permissions for other players to join you and work on your claim together, but it’s not what we’d call streamlined or intuitive. We’ll be working on that soon.
• Player merchants – This is how you turn resources (which can be awkward to barter) into coin that’s easily traded. NOTE: Merchants do not SELL anything. If you want to buy something, then buy it from a player in the Stalls at the Hub. (NOTE: Market Stalls are coming soon in Alpha.)
• VOIP support – Right now, you’re constrained to text chat. VOIP will be coming soon.
• SOEmote – The code support is done, but not the interface for using it. That’ll be added soon also.
• Social Networking Connections (Youtubes, Facebooks)
• Configurable Keybindings – Sorry that you can’t edit your keys right now. Soon!

[Gwence]

game environment looked pretty decent, game itself from what I saw looked pretty boring, but it's alpha so whatever..

my major problem with this is the business model sony is taking here to have consumers fund there development

I mean I can somewhat understand this from an independent game studio that wants to make big plays (even though it still bothers me) but from one of the biggest corporations in the world - SONY - needing there consumer base to assist in financing the game.

there was thousands of players clogging up the alpha servers over the weekend, each having paid at least $60, most probably $100. Do the math.

it's actually pretty disgusting to me

[Grimfan]

Originally Posted by Gwence [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

game environment looked pretty decent, game itself from what I saw looked pretty boring, but it's alpha so whatever..

my major problem with this is the business model sony is taking here to have consumers fund there development

I mean I can somewhat understand this from an independent game studio that wants to make big plays (even though it still bothers me) but from one of the biggest corporations in the world - SONY - needing there consumer base to assist in financing the game.

there was thousands of players clogging up the alpha servers over the weekend, each having paid at least $60, most probably $100. Do the math.

it's actually pretty disgusting to me

I can do the math if you'd like. Lets assume that 80% of the people accessing this Alpha were trailblazers because the jump from 60-100 isn't too bad and we will be generous. Lets also take David Georgeson for his word and approximate about 20k founders packs were sold.

80% of 20000 is 16000, the remaining 20% we will say is the Explorer pack, so that gives us 4000 more people. Once again, I'm being really generous to Sony on this.

16000x100$ each is = 1.6 million dollars
4000x60$ each is = 240 thousand dollars.

Over all, off those two packs you're making 1.84 million dollars. If you look at what it costs to make a modern MMO in today's professional market (ie: Do not look at Pantheon, or any other kickstarter MMO) you are looking at somewhere between 80-200 million dollars. Sony is not, and cannot fund their MMO off of the founders packs that they have sold.

So what is the purpose of the founders pack? Why would you create something that cannot fund your game? You're getting only the most committed fan base to play your game and test it for you. You're getting people that want to be a part of making the game and are willing to pay to do so. Why offer a refund if you need this money to make your game? Simply put, you do not offer a refund if this is how you fund your game.

[Tiggles]

I respect Secrets opinion but this Lune guy is fucking retarded.