[Necro] Iksar Regeneration Advantage Put to Task

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have a problem with the wiki page's wording (just read through it; doesn't seem THAT bad), just add a line like "many prefer other races to Iksar to avoid the large EXP penalty and the faction problems".

I have added such a line. The post originally read:

"This writer recommends Iksar above all others due to the diminishing of the negative effects of the Lich tree. Lich reduces your health per tick to increase your mana, and is one of the most useful spells the necromancer has. The following charts show the race, Iksar vs Non-Iksar, what stage of Lich is used to calculate, and the amount of health lost/gained by each of the following three states: Standing (lowest hp regeneration), Feigned (Just barely better than standing), and Sitting (Most HP regeneration)."

I added the following line to indicate that when I say "This writer recommends", that it is coming from a min/maxer.

"Please note, Iksar is not the only way to go. Go Iksar if you care about min/maxing and having a significant leg up in terms of efficiency."

Originally Posted by crkhobbit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not fine with people saying that Demi Lich is unusable by non-Iksar, or that any other race should reroll. And that's what I'm arguing against here.

Did I write that in anywhere? While it is something that I hold as an opinion, I was striving to make anything that is opinion labelled as "In this writers view..." etc. I went searching through the document, and couldn't find when I said that Demi-Lich is unusable. My point was that it is significantly better for a Non-Iksar.

I'll gladly be fine with my words being altered if you point me to where I say it is unusable.

Nor do I think I said that the Non-Iksar should reroll. My goal here is to help prevent someone like me who came along to the last version of the Wiki Page, have no understanding of how Lich influences the way a necromancer does their job, and think that there is absolutely no distinction, and then re-roll later.

Originally Posted by crkhobbit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In this thread, no. But in game, yes. I have been harassed to reroll. And by that I mean that I received tells from a person for over a half hour about how I'm playing the wrong race that I will regret for the rest of my time playing that character.

If you are a person ingame that has spoken to me and asked me about it, then yes, I promoted Iksar Regen over all. And as I emphasize in every conversation, my point is not to make you reroll, simply to make it so that you know what the cost is, so that when you hit 60, if you are someone that cares about being optimal, it wont burn you so much because you knew about it.

If you are a person that I spoke to, you should know that at no point do I force or push anyone to listen to me. If anyone who talks to me about Necromancers says "That's fine, but I don't care.", that's it. I inform, I don't jam information down people's throats.

I am sorry if it was me and you didn't simply say "Nah, goodbye." Now if it wasn't me, good deal. Just in case it was, I added to my wiki bio that people should be aware that I am longwinded when I discuss things that require detail.

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are making an Iksar to raid with? That is what people should be telling you not to do...

You should change your hypothetical scenario from an extended fight in a group to solo farming, since that is the only reason a sane person would play a necro. You FD, see invis mobs near, you are low HP/mana, now tell me you are happy to lay there almost three times as long on a gnome vs an iksar.

This is the greatest thing about Necromancers. I love how much our class changes in situation. You're totally right, when solo farming, you want to look at the necromancer as a DPSer, and all that good stuff. But when you're in a raiding scene, or a group scene, you play a very different role as Necromancer, and that means different calculations are needed.

Originally Posted by applesauce25r624 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^ holy crap! text wall of doom! thank you for the reply, Uteunayr

Heh. This is why I suspect the OP here was someone who spoke to me about necromancers, and when I was describing the benefits to Iksar, got offended by something I wrote. I in no way ever mean to offend people, but as readers can tell... I am a long winded person, because all of this is incredibly connected, and requires a good bit of detail to truly tease out the different variables at work.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want the best person to comment on this look for uteaenyar or sesserdrix. Leveled a DE necro to 60, realized the power of an iksar and is almost 60 on his iksar necro.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

uteaenyar or sesserdrix

Proof that Sesserdrix is not as difficult a name to spell as Uteunayr. :P

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And as I emphasize in every conversation, my point is not to make you reroll, simply to make it so that you know what the cost is, so that when you hit 60, if you are someone that cares about being optimal, it wont burn you so much because you knew about it.

I think its a good idea really. For example, I knew my iksar warrior was going to suck until Velious . . . just not how far away Velious was going to be. He is simply best in slot right now (enjoy your 1M pp, TMO guildbank) except for a Crown of Rile and the Plane of Sky shoulders. Result: 5000HP, 195 item ac (5200HP when I drink a 35p potion). An ogre warrior can hit 5300HP and 225 item AC even without cobalt or the epic or vp gear.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr

So, although you lose 22% more XP, you can kill things significantly faster. Trust me on this. Anyone who has played 2 Necros, one non-Iksar, one Iksar, they all have felt it. It is HUGE. 3-4 mobs on a 6 minute timer was average for Uteu in Highkeep (2 nobles, Isabella, maybe a bard every 20 minutes) while leveling, 6-7 in the same area was average for Sesserdrix (2 nobles, Isabella, both bards, upstairs noble, front gate captain). And it wasn't just skill from having done it before. Not needing to life tap as much is big mana conservation.

This I find kinda hard to believe though. But i've never played both side by side.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This I find kinda hard to believe though. But i've never played both side by side.

Sadly, I can provide no evidence other than my word as someone who has done both. I remember HHK specifically because I remember that camp well on both Uteu (who I did 50-60 less than 6 months ago), and Sesser (who I did 51-55 about 2 months ago. Note, double XP was not active at the time I did nobles. Double XP ended at level 35 for Sesser)... They were near enough together that I had good memory of both.

[arsenalpow]

This is one of those things where you need to try it yourself to understand the differences, much like ogre warrior vs non-ogre warriors. The math is pretty convincing (and I've played an iksar necro, soloing felt like cheating)

[Splorf22]

The whole stun immunity thing isn't quite as convincing to me regarding warriors. Some rough back of the envelope math:

If mobs get their secondary attack every 8s, bash instead of kick 3/4 of the time, miss half the time, and stun half of those hits, then that's 3/4*1/2*1/2 = 3/16 successful stuns or one stun every 40-45 seconds. Sakuragi attacks every 1.2 seconds, so he loses 1.4 seconds of threat time on average. 1.4/42 = 3% of hate/damage.

It's not trivial of course; that's about the aggro difference obtained by upgrading the primary slot from a Blade of the Black Dragon Eye to a Sword of the Shissar. But I find it hard to believe this would really be noticeable in practice. 15% is a much larger difference than 3%.

Of course if your warrior is an iksar wearing sebilite scale with horrible HP/AC, then that's a different story.

[arsenalpow]

I've played a DE warrior and tanked/positioned raid mobs and an ogre warrior doing the same. I can 100% say it's easier as an ogre. Positioning by walking a mob backwards is infinitely easier without getting bashed over and over again. I wasn't a convert until I experienced it for myself, but it is unequivocally easier.

[Borador]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is one of those things where you need to try it yourself to understand the differences, much like ogre warrior vs non-ogre warriors. The math is pretty convincing (and I've played an iksar necro, soloing felt like cheating)

I don't think its as complicated as some people think. Someone else mentioned how an iksar can just simply be travelling and go from half to full HP, where the non-iksar would still need to heal up when they got where they were going. Similarly, over the course of XPing, you can all but ignore the random damage you may take, since it regens over time, other races don't have that luxury.

[crkhobbit]

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Someone else mentioned how an iksar can just simply be travelling and go from half to full HP, where the non-iksar would still need to heal up when they got where they were going. Similarly, over the course of XPing, you can all but ignore the random damage you may take, since it regens over time, other races don't have that luxury.

Other people have already mentioned this, but I think this is the best argument for Iksar.

I wasn't convinced on the mana argument, but this point is the one that resonates with me.

I thought the faction issue would be made irrelevant by Velious, but I'm KOS everywhere as a Gnome anyway. And apparently Iksar can use the underground merchants in Qeynos and Freeport that I've been using.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think its as complicated as some people think. Someone else mentioned how an iksar can just simply be travelling and go from half to full HP, where the non-iksar would still need to heal up when they got where they were going. Similarly, over the course of XPing, you can all but ignore the random damage you may take, since it regens over time, other races don't have that luxury.

It really isn't. The complicated statements I made were an attempt to map out the benefits of it to Necromancers specifically. This is definitely a very strong advantage to the Iksar all together.

I think I put it in that previous post, but being able to ignore random damage you take is very, very helpful when charm killing. Your charm breaks, the dude quads you for 100, you're down 400 hp before your ST + Recharm goes off, that 400 could be a Touch of the Night, but then you lose 300 hp. It is better to just let it regen if you're not hurting for mana.

You can also run around with Lich on fairly safely, only losing 10 hp a tick, which is comparable to Call of Bones for a Non-Iksar while sitting. So when running somewhere while OOM, or Levanting a bunch, you can be generating 22 mana a tick, which is just shy of what others sit for. Sure, other races can do it, but at a -18, a bit steeper.

So, spot on.

[crkhobbit]

So, you may have answered this somewhere else, but I'm curious how long it has taken you to get to 55 after you rerolled?