Game Mechanics: More than 4 npc's shouldn't be able to attack a target at once

[Rygar]

Just wanted to add some relevant information to this thread and give it a brief ressurection. Nilbog, it seems you were asking when these mob and pet limitations went in. Hopefully this can shed some light...

There was a developer interview in 2002 that brought to light a '4 pet limit' on mobs here (it is a repost of original interview):

Is there a code imposed limit on the number of pets that can be actively
engaging a single monster, and if so what is that limit? -Istaron

Yes. No more than four pets can engage a single target. This is basically to prevent use of only pets to defeat opponents. We think it's important to have some player characters involved in the combat at times.

I believe at this point in time that code they are referring to is no longer working as intended. I'll get more to that later. Other people disputed not being able to have more than 4 pets at once after the interview.

One comment here:

Try it and check your logs.

Get 5 pet classes together, have them all hit /pet kill and step close enough to log the hits. You'll find something rather interesting.

I also found video evidence of more than 4 pets attacking at once on revamped CT in fear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig7k_-2B8l8

During this fight there are 3 shaman pets, 2 spectre necro pets, and an enchanter animation (so 6 in total). At first glance when they engage you can see a shaman pet just stand back and do nothing. I thought maybe this 4 mob limit was preventing it from attacking, but we just don't know (shaman could have been asleep, or a strategy to engage after the first knockback from CT).

Go to about 0:45 seconds in and you can see 3 wolves and 2 spectres all swinging their attack animation. I didn't notice the enchanter animation, he is seen running around after the videographer got knocked back (the animation is not engaged / attacking). But that doesn't appear to be definitive proof, chanter could have summoned after he got knocked back, previous animation maybe died on a riposte or something. But we do see it attacking later, which is 6 pets total.

So we either gather from this that the 4 pet rule is not in place, or maybe it had some proximity rules (such as only the 4 closest pets can BEGIN to attack, once new pets move into range, they can begin the attack as well). I'm leaning towards the former.

Digging further, we see an in length rant discussing the 'max of 4 pets' on an NPC issue here. Has an interesting blurb:

Many of us have seen in excess of 4 summoned pets
swinging away at a single target - but have seen
a charmed pet just wander away from the same mess.

So, like many things, it appears that the 4 pet
limit is for charmed pets (and NPC's) not summoned
pets which were made more PC like quite a while back.

First of all, there is a lot of counter evidence in the thread about summoned pets being able to maul a single target. They point to a mage website where a group of some 20+ mages went to PoA and farmed crowns with their pets. Even claim there was logs of 12 pets doing damage in the span of 2 seconds and screenshots of them all engaged. I couldn't find that site to verify, but for now I'll focus on the 'pets being made more PC like' being a culprit here.

11/29/2000 Patch:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001129.html

Random-effects on weapons carried by pets will now behave as if the pet is a player character rather than an NPC. The change last patch reduced them to a rate below player characters. As part of this patch, target-specific random effects will only work if the target is the intended type. For instance, a weapon that processes 'Dismiss Summoned' will only 'go off' on a summoned NPC instead of everything.

It's quite possible that at this point in time, 11/29/2000, is when pets were able to by-pass the '4 pet limit' code that was in place, because they were no longer treated as NPCs.

But when did this go in place? Perhaps initially, who knows. Let's dig a little deeper, some discussion here, kind of switching to the 'only 4 mobs can attack a PC' side of the argument, but I'm thinking it is part of the same code that went in:

So, if someone's neglected their defense for a long time, they could run around a newbie zone collecting rats and bats until theres a dozen beating on him, and defense will start to go up?

There was a patch a while ago that insured you won't have more than 4 beating on you at any given time, so I think the dozen theory won't fly that well...

Additional confirmation below and some potential evidence for the 'can only root 4 mobs' theory (one questions why not root more for powerleveling, but I digress):

Only 4 will engage you at once, but the others will wait. My 37 Wizard was helping my new Monk the other day (two computers and accounts), and one of the ways I'd do it was run around and root 4 mobs, then run around and use a level 1 nuke on 4 more, and then run back to the monk. The monk could then pick one of the 4 that were on me, and start beating it. Meanwhile, the roots were wearing off. As the roots wore off, these mobs would come over and stand nearby. As the monk would kill the mobs beating on me, they would be replaces from those others.

On a side note, in browsing some classic 'powerleveling' guides and dev questions, the number 4 is referenced a lot in terms of damage shield leveling:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822...ve/arc22.shtml

They pull 4 mobs and make sure they hit them all. Then the cleric casts CH and the mobs all aggro onto the cleric. If someone puts a dam shield on the cleric the mobs will all die and the warrior will get credit.

So anyways, there is reference to this '4 mobs attacking a PC' being patched in. I haven't discovered that smoking gun yet. My theory is it was in Kunark. Basically, reading over old testimonials and interviews, the player base was not aware of what 'leash' was (it WAS in old world, but due to smaller zones and habit to zone before dying, few knew about it).

Basically there was a problem in Kunark where a tank or whatever would pull and a mob would leash. Hate list would extend over and over as it passed mobs out of range and a character got added to the list. Eventually they would get too close to a pack and BOOM, insta gibbed by a bunch of mobs. They did a lot of work to the 'call for help' function and such to fix this, but it wasn't perfect. So I think that is when the 'max 4 mobs' got added in (but just a theory).

Real quick want to go back to how this 'only 4 mobs can melee a PC at once' thing works and other discussion, link again here:

Probably because pets are mobs, and so use the same rules as mobs. Go to
some newbie or lowbie area sometime and aggro a bunch of different kinds of
mobs (use different mobs so you can tell them apart in the status messages).
Get 6 or 7. Notice how only 4 actually try to melee you at once?

<snip>

Anyway, the Wizard has about 20 mobs aggroed, all deep deep green to him.
At any given time, four of them are standing in his face, trying to hit him,
but mostly missing. The rest are all standing around, at a respectable
distance, waiting their turn. Whenever the Monk kills one of the four,
another rushes in from the surrounding circle to take its place.

A rebuttle to this:

Yes and no...

You can tow 4 wimp mobs around the zone so that any higher level that tries
to agro on you can't get into melee range...

HOWEVER... [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

This only applies to MELEE RANGE... casters that agro can still cast on you
if they're beyond melee range, healers can heal/buff the lawn trash if
they're on the same faction, mobs with missile weapons can use them on you
from beyond melee range.

Last but not least... are charmed mobs affected by the '4 pets per target limit' even after the patch making PCs more pet like? I seem to think it has some merit, quotes from same link above (in addition to previous charm quote):

Many mages have seen more than 4 summoned pets hit a mob, you're not alone. However, several of us have seen a charmed or direcharmed pet avoid engaging a mob with 4 pets on it already. Given that summoned pets are no longer NPC's (see changes to Sword of Runes) and more PC like, I think that is the distinguishing difference.

This Trakanon raid appears to be Luclin, the charmed golems seem to behave strangely. Some of them just sit and look away, don't appear to be attacking and charm appears to be on. I also see a necro pet bug out because of this, just standing at one point instead of meleeing. So perhaps charmed mobs by-pass this 'more PC like' change and are considered more NPC like (perhaps so they can cast NPC only spells?).

Anyways, take away from this what you will. I'm too tired to write a summary right now, am happy to research any missing information further, or information you'd like more corroboration on.

[loramin]

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Great job all!

[Buellen]

Just wow Rygar 8)

I enjoyed digging for proof in that past, but your skills in this activity just amaze me !

Keep up the good work sir

[Rygar]

Wanted to update this with some new information I found. In a recent DN bug report I made, there was classic mention of like 22 swarming beetles spawning in a trap, which double attack and hit fast, etc.. max hit of 60. Inside dungeon with no sow...

I thought to myself, "Damn, how could a puller survive that? is like, a damage potential of 2640 per round! nevermind kick/bash". Then I remembered this thread.

Found this post on graffe for an AoE guide, makes mention of the 4 mob max for attacking you limit:
https://www.graffes.com/forums/showt...l=1&styleid=51

soloing/farming ~ with the epic rune or manaskin its a very effective way to clear greenies. even without the stun only 4 can attack at once so if you can find a spawn of 3 or 4 aggro a bunch of others and drag them into the middle of the set spawn. there will be a lot of interrupts but should be able 8 to 10 at once pretty easily if they have around 1600 hp

Should note that the post was dated 12/1/2001, so pretty decent evidence along with all the rest of the posts in this thread that this should be a thing all throughout Velious.

There was also mention in some of those swarming beetle links that the 'beetles preferred casters'. Thinking on this, with the 4 limit max in place, perhaps as someone healed the puller or even nuked another beetle, the rest of the swarm not able to attack the tank would swarm to another person on the hate list? Sounds like how someone else made mention in this thread about AoE groups that went sour had everyone's HP drop at once, since the non-occuppied mobs would switch to a valid target on the hate list.

Edit: Just noticed at the end of his guide he says to remember only 3 mobs can hit you at once, most likely a typo for 4 as he mentioned this before and it has been corroborated multiple times.

[FungusTrooper]

Man this was an interesting read. This is a pretty big game-changer too, right?

[Quinas]

Rygar, cyber-archaeologist.

[Doil_Boil]

Wow this will severely effect druid powerleveling if it gets implemented.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Doil_Boil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wow this will severely effect druid powerleveling if it gets implemented.

But think of all the bard lives that will be saved!

Honestly, this may also help make PBAoE a semi-effective dungeon strategy again. Perhaps some kind of hybrid thing where you do standard pulling but perhaps every 20 mins or so you nuke down 20 or so mobs.

In areas such as the Hole where some golems could be unstunnable maybe a paladin or SK can snap agro them out and tank during stun cycle, and won't be mauled by 20+ mobs.

[Lysander]

Just read that thread about quad kiting in server chat and this was linked there:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-3946.html

which talks about only 3 mobs being able to attack you while quad kiting--the 4th apparently would run off. Seems related to this.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Lysander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just read that thread about quad kiting in server chat and this was linked there:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-3946.html

which talks about only 3 mobs being able to attack you while quad kiting--the 4th apparently would run off. Seems related to this.

Interesting to digest all this and look back... that PBAoE guide mentioned 3 at the end (which I thought was a mistake), and your post mentions 3, and the original nilbog link seemed to mention 3 some pages later.

Your link:

Try not to let the mobs hit you. There is a limit on the number of mobs that will engage you in combat at one time (3), and if the group catches up to you, I find that 3 whack you, while the fourth moves off a little ways. Aside from the danger of taking damage (being stunned while 3 raptors are hitting you is not fun), this breaks up the group and you will have to take the time to re-circle them.

It sure is impressive, but not riskier as a casual quad-kite, as only 3 mobs can hit you at once (thats why when it happens, one of the 4 mobs will run away and you'll have to group them again) And if you run OOM before theyre all dead, just outrun them with your wolfform [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My link:
https://www.graffes.com/forums/showt...l=1&styleid=51

Anyways, hope it helps if you haven't done AE groups before and feel free to post your own hints and tricks and/or questions and remember STAND STILL! Only 3 mobs can ever hit you at a time, don't be afraid to AE!

Link from Nilbog:
http://web.archive.org/web/200101231...ML/000930.html

Pre-kunark.. getting more as 3 pets on a mob was hard.. because verant had 'fix' a bug which would allow only 3 pets on a mob. (this was done for players, only 3 mobs would agro the player now, with pulling.. that was the idea behind it)

After kunark, it is no problem at all getting 4 or 5 pets on a mob.. just arder pet to attack and it's on it.

Interesting that pre-kunark there may have been a 3-mob limit mentioned, I could see long time players realizing this and never re-testing to find it was moved to 4-mob limit (or reason why some may inter-change 3 or 4 on max mob limit).

Either way, pretty good evidence it was a thing, up to powers that be if this has 'exploit' written all over it and how to manage it. I think it would be cool to implement, especially if those 22 mob traps trigger at once in DN!