What's the deal with mages? - Page 4

Snaggles · #31 09-05-2023, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Raid geared monks can parse 90+ DPS on raid targets. Raid geared rogues can parse over 100 DPS on raid targets. These numbers are going to be higher on blues. Your Monk parse in Sebilis is simply wrong.

You can post logs of your monk and your mage if you are so confident. It is strange you are so relucant to post something that is easy for you to acquire.

There is literally is nothing comparable between seb blues and raid targets.
One thing to keep in mind is pets are not reliant on gear. They plateau immediately once summoned at a level with little tweaks the player can make. “Monks on raids” could mean anything. From tstaff to raid loot to some casual scrub with an adamantite club because they didn’t get the memo those suck in 2023.

Crede · #32 09-05-2023, 09:03 AM

I’d take a mage in a group as my primary dps over any other class any day except maybe a necro or enc who is charming.

The mage toolkit is just perfectly suited for dps. They can also achieve these numbers with lower APM than any other class which I think is significant as I believe most people do have an APM bucket.

When I think of people being lazy in groups, rogues usually come to mind. I’ve come across some that don’t even hit backstab every time. It takes a lot more effort to stay positioned and continuously backstab then a mage who can just send a pet in and drop occasional nukes/ds to put out big numbers.

If you find the right solo camps I’ve also found killing stuff almost easier than any other class I’ve come across. A focused fire pet paired with mage nukes can take you to 55 ridiculously easy. It almost feels like cheating how easy it is to kill something. 55+ is a different level of difficulty that can also be done easily with a mage solo if you know where to go it just might not be quite as fast as mobs start to get a lot more difficult overall.

There’s probably a lot of people who will tell you they suck because they’ve never played one or have only logged one in as a coth bot. And look up quad da mages if you want to see some cool shit they’ve done in raids.

TLDR - mages kick ass

Troxx · #33 09-05-2023, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Raid geared monks can parse 90+ DPS on raid targets. Raid geared rogues can parse over 100 DPS on raid targets. These numbers are going to be higher on blues. Your Monk parse in Sebilis is simply wrong.

Look man, the cool thing about data is that it is just that … data. It happened. You can argue with numbers all you want, but it happened.

As pointed out repeatedly, that was a compilation of fights and the one area gamparse struggles with. The monk was quite a lot higher than 48 dps. The important take away was that this tunare fisted with 15/20 monk was only 20% higher dps than the water pet. For this particular camp the monk geared thusly was 40% lower dps than the mage and pet together before factoring in DS. Remember that crypt cycles take 7-10 fewer minutes to clear than repops happen. This camp undeniably favored the mage due to the automatic built in Med breaks. Had we been in a theoretical scenario where pulls and fighting never stopped it would have been much much (much) closer. You’ve run the math on this. Without non combat time to catch up on mana the mage will eventually have to drop to actual sustained dps. Conjuration spec nuke at 3.33 mana to damage efficiency this works out to 16.65 spell dps as the max theoretical with c2 but probably closer to 13 dps factoring in med tick misses, resists, and mana needed to rehaste pet and update DD. That’s less than burnt wood staff clicky.

Under that theoretical situation where there is no between fight downtime, the monk would have been either slightly ahead or about dead even factoring in everything.

This is why I will continue to assert that yes, mages are a top tier dps class. If a garbage geared mage with an unfocused pet can keep up with a velious raid geared monk under cherry picked situations that play to the mages weaknesses, that’s stellar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can post logs of your monk and your mage if you are so confident. It is strange you are so relucant to post something that is easy for you to acquire.

Probably because my last reply was from bed and I’m now at work. I’ll be home in 10 hours and can put up some monk parses.

My TStaff monk fully group buffed (ench haste and sham str stack to 255 but nothing fancy like avatar or Ranger buffs) will reliably put out 90-110 dps on lower level xp trash. This is better than the mage pet by itself but below the mage’s sustained dps and less than half what my mage can burn when stuff needs to die quickly in an emergency. Scars of Sigil in first gem slot with a GCD clicky is a 450 point nuke every 2-2.1 seconds. That’s a lot of burn potential.

In higher group areas still consistently over 80 on the low end. 29/30 2hb with a dd proc is really comparable to velious raid 1handers for a monk and not surpassed until you compare it to raid monk 2handers. 2 handers are really just the way to go after the dmg bonus changes.

Troxx · #34 09-05-2023, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by long.liam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mages are only bad or weak compared to all the other caster classes and honestly it's really only significant post 45 when NPC HP and Max hit is so much more than summoned pets.

For group content and considering filling a dps role, the only other of the caster classes that will put out more is an enchanter/necro with a properly equippped and hasted charm pet.

Cleric - lol no
Druid - lol no
Shaman - mage does a lot more dps even when focusing exclusively on dps with dog pet out
Wizard - lol no
Necro - mage will consistently win out but by a much smaller margin than with summoned pet. With a charm pet? Same as enchanter below.
Ench - winner winner chicken dinner if charming, hasting, and giving a torch.

All of these other classes have abilities that make them globally more powerful, but in the singular role of dps (which is all the mage is meant to be) - they are stout.

Really I just feel bad for wizards. Outside of raids with lures and bane nukes, they really only excel at quadding.

DeathsSilkyMist · #35 09-05-2023, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is literally is nothing comparable between seb blues and raid targets.
One thing to keep in mind is pets are not reliant on gear. They plateau immediately once summoned at a level with little tweaks the player can make. “Monks on raids” could mean anything. From tstaff to raid loot to some casual scrub with an adamantite club because they didn’t get the memo those suck in 2023.

You generally do lower damage on raid targets, so you'll parse higher on blues. The last 60 Rogue I parsed was doing around 133 DPS in Seb with Epic in mainhand.

Enchanter and Necromancer are also great naked, so that isn't really an argument for Mages specifically. You'll get more mileage from the utility those classes have.

Mages don't solo as well as other classes, don't DPS well enough to be game changing in a group, and don't DPS at all in raids.

Don't get me wrong, Mage is a fun class, especially if you like leveling from 1-50. But people should know Mages lose power as they level, while other classes gain power. That is why most don't level past 55.

Troxx · #36 09-05-2023, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You generally do lower damage on raid targets, so you'll parse higher on blues. The last 60 Rogue I parsed was doing around 133 DPS in Seb with Epic in mainhand.

You keep posting this over an over. I would love to see the logs of sustained dps of “around 133 dps” on a run of the mill epic rogue at any level. I frankly do not believe it. Isolated rare lucky fights? Sure … I’ve seen that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But people should know Mages lose power as they level, while other classes gain power. That is why most don't level past 55.

So mages lose power when they unlock their final tier of pets, get their best pet buff, acquire haste mask, get their best debuffs, get their best DS and get their most efficient nukes?

No. They continue to get more powerful and do stay that way.

Mages suffer on in not benefiting from raid gear to the degree that most other classes do. Once you hit 60 with a full spell book - you’re practically done. While everyone else still has all that extra room to grow (and in terms of dps finally catch up to the mage) … the mage is done.

I mean I get it. Get your mage to 60 and you run out of things to do. Excluding raids, this is true for most classes … which is why everyone has a dozen alts and why, after being velious locked for so many years everyone is now just raiding to spent dkp on alts

DeathsSilkyMist · #37 09-05-2023, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep posting this over an over. I would love to see the logs of sustained dps of “around 133 dps” on a run of the mill epic rogue at any level. I frankly do not believe it. Isolated rare lucky fights? Sure … I’ve seen that.

So mages lose power when they unlock their final tier of pets, get their best pet buff, acquire haste mask, get their best debuffs, get their best DS and get their most efficient nukes?

No. They continue to get more powerful and do stay that way.

Mages suffer on in not benefiting from raid gear to the degree that most other classes do. Once you hit 60 with a full spell book - you’re practically done. While everyone else still has all that extra room to grow (and in terms of dps finally catch up to the mage) … the mage is done.

I mean I get it. Get your mage to 60 and you run out of things to do. Excluding raids, this is true for most classes … which is why everyone has a dozen alts and why, after being velious locked for so many years everyone is now just raiding to spent dkp on alts

Sure i'll post the logs and the video.

They get weaker because the lack of CC catches up with them. This means their soloing power gets weaker as they level.

Other melee classes can scale their damage with gear. This means their DPS gets weaker as other classes level.

Mages can get Epic and Boots of Bladecalling to boost their DPS, but Epic is just too hard to get for most people.

Troxx · #38 09-05-2023, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They get weaker because the lack of CC catches up with them. This means their soloing power gets weaker as they level.

Other melee classes can scale their damage with gear. This means their DPS gets weaker as other classes level.

Mages can get Epic and Boots of Bladecalling to boost their DPS, but Epic is just too hard to get for most people.

Solo ability indeed gets weaker for mages. It also gets weaker for most classes - charming classes and shamans being the exception.

Beyond that it’s just gear. Mages hit a hard stagnation wall once they hit 60. Other classes have growth potential but the mage is so far ahead of melees without raid gear that most classes are simply playing catch up. A top raid geared rogue or monk with ToV 2h will or should beat out a scrub mage in sustained dps. I can’t really say the same thing for knights, rangers, etc. Raid geared necros/ench can’t necessarily put out more dps than their group counterparts, they just do so with higher margins of safety.

Raid geared wizards remain one trick ponies for hard burns but will still fall woefully behind a semi-afk scrub mage in group gear.

Mages aren’t gods of solo. They don’t have lots of dimensions or hat tricks. They are relegated to raid support roles. But yeah no, they never get weaker. They scale up just like every class in the game until they hit that wall of raid gear.

Remember though, we are talking in terms of the group game. There’s a whole lot of EverQuest out there before you start raiding ToV. If I had started with and stuck with a mage as my first, I would have stopped spending dkp on it after velks boots and switched my dkp attention to a melee class that really benefits from the gear.

Snaggles · #39 09-05-2023, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You generally do lower damage on raid targets, so you'll parse higher on blues. The last 60 Rogue I parsed was doing around 133 DPS in Seb with Epic in mainhand.

There is a parse to prove any single point. That said, consistently the MH rogues I group with in Seb are in that 75-90 range. At least parsing for hours on end and comparing them to whatever I’m playing.

DeathsSilkyMist · #40 09-05-2023, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a parse to prove any single point. That said, consistently the MH rogues I group with in Seb are in that 75-90 range. At least parsing for hours on end and comparing them to whatever I’m playing.

I'll need to parse the rest of the video later, don't have time now. Currently this is the data I have:

90.7 + 104.6 + 139 + 125.3 + 108.7 / 5 = 113.66 DPS average.

He was using Epic in main hand + Paebala Warbone in offhand. He was switching to a different weapon occasionally in his offhand, will need to see if I can figure out which one. It had the same graphic as Willsapper. I was hasting him with Celerity. I was not casting Avatar on him. Not sure what his worn haste was.