Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, I think it is a coincidence. Because Enchanter charmed pet is such high dps, that they can fill the dps role quite well.

Any other decent solo class you would likely not want to double on. Shamans specifically, you will basically never have 2 in a group. Because the utility gain wouldn't be worth the dps loss. You only need so many slows, heals, roots, etc. It diminishes a lot faster than massive DPS by an enchanter pet.

I would agree though, that OP's question is so hypothetical that it never happens. I don't think I've ever seen 4 casters plowing through content, as enc/cleric can basically kill mostly anything groupable until you need to start bringing in a bigger group with a war or other classes to open up the next tier as you indicated.

I think he knows this.

But he's been arguing, yet again, that shamans will root rot in this hypothetical 2 charm group. Why would they do that? To merely prove a point that shamans are better than mages at DPS.

Yes. He really is that childish.

DSM really doesn't deserve a civil discussion at this point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, I think it is a coincidence. Because Enchanter charmed pet is such high dps, that they can fill the dps role quite well.

Any other decent solo class you would likely not want to double on. Shamans specifically, you will basically never have 2 in a group. Because the utility gain wouldn't be worth the dps loss. You only need so many slows, heals, roots, etc. It diminishes a lot faster than massive DPS by an enchanter pet.

I would agree though, that OP's question is so hypothetical that it never happens. I don't think I've ever seen 4 casters plowing through content, as enc/cleric can basically kill mostly anything groupable until you need to start bringing in a bigger group with a war or other classes to open up the next tier as you indicated.

I agree you would never bring two Shamans, and that the DPS is the reason to bring two Enchanters.

But I disagree about the coincidence part. Enchanters are certainly the best solo and single group class for the same reason. They have unparalleled CC in addition to good DPS. They don't really play different solo vs. single group either. They are still Charming and CCing. They can just be a bit more ballsy since they have backup.

Most group content that 3-4 players can do is already soloable by Enchanters or Shamans. Having one of each in your group means you can basically have a single player solo a bad situation if multiple problems are occurring simultaneously. A Cleric is less able to handle an unstunnable mob beating them in the face, for example.

DPS also has diminishing returns, which I have mentioned before. At 200 DPS you are killing Fungi King in 90 seconds. At 250 DPS you are killing Fungi King in 72 seconds. The biggest issue with Everquest is 30 minute spawn timers cause DPS to fall off considerably after a certain point. 250 DPS is only saving you 18 seconds in a 30 minute wait time. Obviously raids are different, but we are discussing single group content.

A 3-4 player group is not really killing anything with more than 25000 HP, and 2 Enchanters are already hitting 200 DPS. Generally speaking even when you are churning through mobs, a bit of extra DPS needs many consecutive play hours to translate over to an additional spawn. If you take a break in between, you lose all that progress.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah. Enchanters are the most versatile soloing class, but Necromancers and Druids at least have niches of their own in being dad-friendly (infinite use feign death) and mobile (porting around, being able to bind at a camp and port to sell/xfer) while being less versatile. Bards are the king of xp/hr with 10 plat in gear on a fresh server and deserve a mention because of that. Shamans are just worse Enchanters.

It's a class with no rez, no port, no charm spell. It's an entirely mediocre soloing class bombarded to god-like status because it can facetank and very slowly grind down impressive-looking mobs with minimal input required. You can kill a lot of mobs, but you lack the tools to efficiently get to the location of the mob, isolate the mob, and dps the mob.

Everyone looks at the time it takes to kill a mob, but you have to get there first. Druids reign supreme when there's something to charm for dps since they can just port there. Enchanters can paci down a dungeon before a shaman makes it past the first pack of mobs. I feel bad for people who kit out a Shaman and find out that they never evolve from 'facetank mob, whittle it down'. You'll never be able to port. You'll never be able to paci. You'll never be able to feign death without recharging your sky ring. You'll never be able to charm without using puppet strings clicks.

I think you can argue that druids, bards and necromancers are more efficient at soloing, which they indeed are, but shamans are the ones who can take on the higher end mobs which summon etc.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you can argue that druids, bards and necromancers are more efficient at soloing, which they indeed are, but shamans are the ones who can take on the higher end mobs which summon etc.

Agreed.

[Gloomlord]

Suppose you should also be agreeing with the fact that mages might be better at one thing than the shaman, but alas, here we are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Suppose you should also be agreeing with the fact that mages might be better at one thing than the shaman, but alas, here we are.

I agree with you that Mages do better single target DPS when compared to a Shaman.

I simply disagree that roughly 50 extra single target DPS over a Shaman is necessary in a four man group already doing 200+ DPS with 2 Enchanters.

The Shaman's utility far outweighs DPS that has already hit significant diminishing returns, and the group can have the Shaman do more DPS via root rotting in XP groups if they care. As other people have mentioned (and I agree), that is typically overkill because players intuitively understand diminishing returns on DPS. It is the same reason why you don't normally see 6 player XP groups, because the additional DPS of 2-3 more players simply doesn't make up for the XP loss each player is getting.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With Puppet Strings, in addition to those things you mentioned, they surpass Enchanter.

Noone is denying they're a really good class. We're just denying they're needed in this hypothetical group.

And this fucking idiot can't concede to something even a mediocre player can figure out.

Oh I don't disagree with you at all there. They are definitely not critical for this 4 person group and the benefit they bring (unless we're talking fully geared level 60 with Torpor) can be easily provided by other classes in almost all cases. Ench can haste and slow, a Cleric for heals.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh I don't disagree with you at all there. They are definitely not critical for this 4 person group and the benefit they bring (unless we're talking fully geared level 60 with Torpor) can be easily provided by other classes in almost all cases. Ench can haste and slow, a Cleric for heals.

But if an Enchanter is running out of mana due to hasting, slowing, ccing, and charming, then your group is losing efficiency anyway. You still have an efficiency problem if your Cleric is FM and your Enchanter is OOM.

A Shaman can share those duties, alleviating the mana loss on an Enchanter. The Cleric cannot share those duties as easily.

[Toxigen]

If your cleric is FM and the enchanter is low, all he has to do is downrank slow for a while.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If your cleric is FM and the enchanter is low, all he has to do is downrank slow for a while.

Or you could have a Shaman, and the Enchanter isn't slowing at all[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]