monk ratios, primary and offhand choices

[Jimjam]

Very interesting to see the 2hs (no fist weave) does a consistent circa 90% of the damage of dw in each scenario.

[Snaggles]

That’s a helluva post Troxx. Thanks for taking the time [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea all testing had similar self buffs and 91% haste (sky cloak and dragon slaying gaunts). I snared it near velks and would zone when it turned to flee and reset. The primal is the only notable new addition, these were non wolf/avatar parses. Was hoping to opine percent increase more than top figures.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I do appreciate Troxx's lengthy response. I am not being sarcastic. The only thing I will say is Troxx lies a lot about me in that post, as usual. It is hard to trust a liars word on anything. But I must try to help out Troxx and the reader by giving Troxx a reality check.

Troxx has made various claims over the years on these forums, and thinks he has hurt my credibility with them. His strawman version of me he talks to is built on these claims.

Because of this, he doesn't want to admit he was wrong about any of his claims. It will crumble his strawman attacks against me, make him wrong in those threads retroactively, and make him look even less credible.

In the past he has claimed Corudoth is a bad parse target, and thus my data wasn't good enough to support my claim in another thread. This is his most common strategy. Try to throw out all evidence so he doesn't need to try and gather his own. Then the discussion is just his word against another's.

Lets just look at one snippet of this long post:

That's a LEVEL 5 turtle with 200k hp. You have collected data sets that imply that offensive parses on this level 5 turtle are very shockingly similar to an XP group (relatively high level) xp mob in Frontier Mountains. Those fights happened. You have the numbers. You even video taped it (why you insist on doing this is beyond me - I do not recall anyone ever asking for video evidence). I will agree that the parses are similar enough that I am comfortable using "napkin math" to then infer that dps done vs Corudoth with a particular setup will be similarly ... VERY SIMILAR to what you might expect off that giant in FM.

Where napkin math runs into problems is if you blindly assume that the same proportionality exists between Corudoth and ... Vindi, Avatar of War, Kael arena mobs (notoriously high ac for their level) etc etc.

Troxx doesn't seem to understand the damage formula on P99. In it's most simpled form, it looks like this:

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

Neither Damage Roll or Damage bonus are modified in any way during combat, regardless of the mob you are fighting. Mitigation offset is the end result from how the game uses AC, level, etc., to offset your damage rolls.

The mitigation offset is what's allowing me to do 50 DPS to Corudoth instead of 30 DPS. Corudoth has less AC, is lower level, etc. Corudoth's mitigation offset is lower than the Giants. We could easily say AoW would take less than 30 DPS, as AoW has a higher mitigation offset.

The one scenario where the differences will change more significantly between 1h and 2h in a parse is if the Damage Roll gets reduced close to the minumum possible damage via mitigation offset.

For example, lets take two weapons:

2h weapon
100 average damage roll
30 damage bonus

1h weapon
55 average damage roll
10 damage bonus
Attacks 2x as fast

In this scenario, the 1h will match the 2h, as it has 65 x 2 = 130 damage, which is the same as the 2h.

If a mob reduced the damage rolls by 80% via their mitigation offset:

2h weapon
100 average damage roll * 0.2 = 20 damage
30 damage bonus

1h weapon
55 average damage roll * 0.2 = 11 damage
10 damage bonus
Attacks 2x as fast

Now you have 50 2h damage vs 44 1h damage. When your damage roll starts getting too low, then you will see an offset, and Damage bonus becomes a bigger factor for overall DPS. This is the argument made for AoW. His mitigation offset is so high that you will see this effect.

For the vast majority of mobs, I doubt you will see this effect in any significant way, as my data is comparing a level 5 and a level 50. AoW is one exception to the rule for sure, which everybody has always agreed.

I say all of this because I want to caution people that Troxx is trying to make himself look good, and smooth over past errors first and foremost. Objectivity is always in second place. This obviously doesn't mean everything he says is wrong when it comes to the game (Troxx's typical lies about me are obviously wrong), but Troxx's latest post shows he still can't admit Corudoth is a good parse target, and thus his objectivity is being clouded in the post. Any conclusions related to this incorrect assumption are also off.

I've given plenty more data than Troxx has in this thread. He should return the favor and gather evidence to support his positions. Sadly I don't think he will though, he never does.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some stuff and a lot of snark - I read it 3x to make sure I wasn't missing something important

Unfortunately, this does indeed seem to be the case:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Heaven help you if you cannot follow the logic train here - failure to understand this concept would be imply you are actually beyond hope.

Which is not surprising as napkin math has led him to really obtuse faulty conclusions in the past in using a specific data set obtained under specific circumstances and then trying to use a broad paintbrush to color the entire world around him:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But when napkin math is used improperly you're going to get stupid irrelevant results. This was the problem with you using napkin math of you soloing a damn level 40 frog in seb. You solo'd a level 40 frog in seb using dots. You did actually do that amount of dps to that mob between you and your pet. That was fact. You had the logs. You had the videos. YOU DID A THING. You and your pet did enough damage in a unit of time that you knew you had done XYZ dps. You then said "hey shamans can be expected to do XYZ dps all the time and in all circumstances" ... and we were like ... 'uh no, that's not how it works'. The conversation was regarding who was going to be the best 4th in a group that already had a cleric and 2 charming enchanters. Mobs would be dying quickly. Those spells aren't exactly quick to cast and you were not actually going to average the same thing in a fast 20 second or less fight that you had the luxury of doing when it was just you (and only you and your pet) with the full hp bar of the mob to play with. Necromancers feel this pain as well. Dots in this era are just not very cool for xp groups where mobs die pretty quickly.

Unfortunately, it seems that instead of trying to have that big boy 'big brain' talk, DSM is more interested in trying to look good in front of some imaginary audience. There is no silent majority not participating. Everyone that is reading is participating.
We see what we have always seen ... a closed mind.

Snaggles flat out told you:

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A level 5 to a level 52 is not a valid parse target. I’ve spent an hour or so messing with bloodmaw who’s level 20 vs my 60 ranger. Aside from calculating an exact DW swing chance all that data was garbage. Two epics parsed very close to ntov weapons. In reality they aren’t in the same zip code.

A level 52 parse offers no usable data save for people trying to optimize a Vox/Naggy alt.

You got another person ... who isn't Troxx ... telling you flat out how you can't use mobs like Corudoth or Bloodmaw to get an accurate picture.
Data/numbers given. (not by Troxx)
Experiences/data/numbers ignored. (not from Troxx)

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say, nobody thinks fist/SoS is viable in 2024 for good reason. It has not surprised a raid meter…ever. Where as among normal mortals a kunark staff 60 monk has, especially for a tryhard with a timed left mouse-click.

Since the 2h patch when live, my monk is in garbage gear with 22% worn haste and has BEEN that level 60 monk AT that raid who surprised the raid meter by over-performing expectations.

Oh well. Back to post 393:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We have reached an impasse. I don’t think anything new is going to be said at this point, nor do I think DSM will consider putting in just a little bit more effort.

Summary: dual wielding is just as potent as it has ever been but 2handers now hold several advantages. Regarding dmg output, cheap EC tradable weapons end up completely eclipsing all comparable and content-similar/appropriate dual wield setups the closer you get to 60. By the time you hit 60, you really don’t have any upgrades available other than some VP drops or endgame velious weapons and tier for tier the 2handers will put out more damage. Prior to your mid-50s certain attainable dual wield setups may or may not perform similarly, but insufficient data was provided for certainty (head nod to DSM). Regardless, there is a tradeoff for fast weapons: ripostes and dmg shields.

The simplest path:
-get your epic (you will want it for all the other reasons)
-buy an IFS, PB or TStaff (if you can afford it)
-forget about anything else until or unless you are raiding endgame.

That is really it in a nut shell.

Can we be done or do we need to keep this going a few more hundred pages?

2 years ago I might have gotten my hopes up. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) some things never change. We are at the literal definition of an impasse. Nadda is going to change other than the number of pages in this thread.

Sorry guys. I tried.

[Troxx]

One thing I need to address:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For the vast majority of mobs, I doubt you will see this effect in any significant way, as my data is comparing a level 5 and a level 50. AoW is one exception to the rule for sure, which everybody has always agreed.

Remember way back to page 7? At the time you were focused on probabilities of having a lucky vs an unlucky run. More hits = more chances to even out the luck so for the important things that you don't get to do every day you don't want to get unlucky?

Remember?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is true. If you fight 2 mobs, you'll probably get 1 below average fight, and 1 above average fight with 2h. This averages out to the middle. This is why you always pick whichever weapons have the better average when killing a lot of mobs.

When you are fighting 1 mob that spawns every 7 days, you don't want to get the below average fight. Unless your guild wipes and is able to try again, you won't get a second fight to average it out.

Remember that?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why have you flip flopped? Back then it was concern about being unlucky on those not every-day mobs. You didn't seem to care about which setup was actually better ... only the concern for getting unlucky. Well ... it really feels like THOSE MOBS are now the precisely THE MOBS you are trying to write off by ignoring the fact that it is on those mobs where the superior dmg bonus of 2handers will be most effective. For the record, IFS and epic fist mainhand hit equal dmg bonus potential at level 55. By level 56 the IFS takes the lead ... and that lead only gets bigger each level beyond that to 60.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh well. Maybe one day you'll hit level 60, have mainhand triple attack, be at the level where 2h dmg bonus has fully matured, and realize that at level 60 the dual wield combination you currently own has no advantage under any circumstances or against any mob compared to the cheap EC tunnel IFS.

Or maybe you'll stay 52 and still not have known that there is a message when FD fails except for the fact that a bunch of people had to tell you otherwise (after leveling a monk to 50+ and a SK to 60)

*CHECK SIGNATURE*

[Troxx]

I have gone through your post. Then again, and over and over and over trying to figure out where your cognitive disconnect is. I could be wrong in interpreting you ... but your specific choice of words may provide a clue. It may be that you don't understand how ac works and influences damage output (both mob damage output against you and your damage output against the mob).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx doesn't seem to understand the damage formula on P99. In it's most simpled form, it looks like this:

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

Neither Damage Roll or Damage bonus are modified in any way during combat, regardless of the mob you are fighting. Mitigation offset is the end result from how the game uses AC, level, etc., to offset your damage rolls.

The mitigation offset is what's allowing me to do 50 DPS to Corudoth instead of 30 DPS. Corudoth has less AC, is lower level, etc. Corudoth's mitigation offset is lower than the Giants. We could easily say AoW would take less than 30 DPS, as AoW has a higher mitigation offset.

Lets zoom in on this:

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

This line implies you think there is a set mitigation offset. This is not exactly correct. Damage rolls happen on the part of the person doing the offense. The actual damage done (other than the damage bonus which is flatly added any time you hit) is modified by strength. I think most of us understand this.

Point is there is no flat 'mitigation offset' it is dynamic/fluid. Things you do to raise your attack will put the odds more in your favor. Things you do to lower your mobs ac will again put the odds more in your favor. But each swing of your weapons is another roll of the dice. Mob AC, when very high, will push your average DI per hit lower. But again, every single swing is a brand new roll of the dice.

So no Corudoth does not have a flat mitigation value.
Vindi does not have a set mitigation value.

Parses simply imply that Corudoth is trivial to a high level player. That's why the absolute dps numbers Snaggle gave you were so ludicriously high on Bloodmaw (level 20 and 50k hp). It is also why ALL of the values were too unrealistically close together. Bloodmaw is a trivial mob. Corudoth is also a trivial mob. Comparisons vs Mendrak are shockingly similar - implying that for a raid geared player he is also falling within the trivial range and giving the raid geared person unrealistic results/returns.

None of those mobs are a challenge.

Did that make any sense or am I just wasting my time? I've spend ludricous amounts of time parsing ac defensively in the past. The interplay between ac and attack is a lot more fluid/dynamic than say ... a warrior clicking defensive immediately removing a set percentage from the damage interval of a monsters dps output (defensive disc does not reduced the DB of a mob). Bear in mind that DB in this instance is the "base damage". Though you can think of this as the "damage bonus" and it operates similarly it is not quite the same thing.

Mob hit = DB (base damage) + DI (1-20 depending on each individual roll of the dice and deflected downward by the armor class value of the player being hit).

Again ... I am sincerely trying to help you understand a thing.

If the above at all made any sense you will understand why performance on a level 5 green con turtle with 200,000 hp is not going to be predictive of performance on a level 70 mob with Velious era raid ac.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have gone through your post. Then again, and over and over and over trying to figure out where your cognitive disconnect is. I could be wrong in interpreting you ... but your specific choice of words may provide a clue.

I agree everybody on these forums isn't perfect. I will sometimes type things out poorly, you will sometimes type things out poorly. I will sometimes read things wrong. You will sometimes read things wrong. A little bit of understanding goes a long way, and can help avoid the rock slinging sessions that break out, or the strawmen that get created. Context can be difficult to preserve in text messages.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So no Corudoth does not have a flat mitigation value.
Vindi does not have a set mitigation value.

This is a perfect example of you misreading, or not reading everything I've said. I never said there is a flat mitigation value.

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

Neither Damage Roll or Damage bonus are modified in any way during combat, regardless of the mob you are fighting. Mitigation offset is the end result from how the game uses AC, level, etc., to offset your damage rolls.

Mitigation Offset is the end result of the game comparing the player's AC, Level, etc. to the mob's. After the game determines all of that, it simply multiplies the Damage Roll by the final value that is the Mitigation Offset. If I was level 5, Corudoth would indeed take less damage from me (assuming I could still do 55 DPS at level 5), because his Mitigation Offset would be reducing my DPS more. I never said Mitigation Offset was some fixed constant value of X, where X is different between mobs. Mitigation Offset adjusts based on AC, level, etc, but the adjustment is equally applied to both 1h and 2h weapons. The difference between mobs is going to be their specific Mitigation Offset based on your Level, AC, etc., compared to their Level, AC, etc.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Parses simply imply that Corudoth is trivial to a high level player. That's why the absolute dps numbers Snaggle gave you were so ludicriously high on Bloodmaw (level 20 and 50k hp). It is also why ALL of the values were too unrealistically close together. Bloodmaw is a trivial mob. Corudoth is also a trivial mob. Comparisons vs Mendrak are shockingly similar - implying that for a raid geared player he is also falling within the trivial range and giving the raid geared person unrealistic results/returns.

This is incorrect, due to your improper understanding of how the formulas work on P99. Can you provide a math formula for how a mob becomes "trivial", and thus DPS between the 1h and 2h weapons normalizes across Corudoth and the FM Giants? I am genuinely curious how you think this works.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a perfect example of you misreading, or not reading everything I've said. I never said there is a flat mitigation value.

Fair enough. I was searching for a reason why this discussion is/was beyond your comprehension and thought I might have found it. If that is not the case, I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

So the answer is that this discussion is just beyond your comprehension?

Good to know.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair enough. I was searching for a reason why this discussion is/was beyond your comprehension and thought I might have found it. If that is not the case, I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

So the answer is that this discussion is just beyond your comprehension?

Good to know.

As you can see, Troxx cannot rebut what I have said.

He cannot explain the math formulas for how a mob becomes "trivial".

He cannot explain the math formulas for how a mob becomes "non-trivial".

Simply applying a nebulous term like "trivial" to a mob is a lazy way of waving away data.

Anyway, let's get back to the discussion:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've given data showing Troxx is wrong about Corudoth. It is a valid parse target:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402

I explained to him why he is seeing these results from Corudoth:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=409

If Troxx wants to provide parses of different mobs using the same 1h and 2h setup that puts my conclusion into question, I would love to see it!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

See? When I call Troxx out on an error he made with Corudoth, he goes back to trolling immediately. He will not admit he is wrong about anything. The one with the closed mind is him.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can beg me for my parses all you want. You can go get your own damn parses for all I care. Whether I post my parses or not ... whether you shit on them or not ... whether you care to believe them or whatever the heck you are inclined to believe ...none of it changes in game *reality*. Those with the tools and the experience know the truth.

I've given data showing Troxx is wrong about Corudoth. It is a valid parse target:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402

I explained to him why he is seeing these results from Corudoth:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=409

If Troxx wants to provide parses of different mobs using the same 1h and 2h setup that puts my conclusion into question, I would love to see it! Until then, we must assume Troxx is simply trying to avoid admitting he was wrong. Again.