So how about that Zimmerman trial?

[Barkingturtle]

White people must just be a lot better at talking their way out of drug charges.

Blacks so dum lol. Len2hideyostash, imo.

[Samoht]

so either you're mitt romney or you're eating out of the trash can with no middle ground? it's honestly irrelevant who you know if you put emphasis on dealing drugs and dropping out of school instead of attending college and having some moderate success in life. let's talk about the 1%-99% of americans and leave the extremes out.

[Malice_Mizer]

You guys are seriously confused. I love how conservative libertarians always bemoan the government, though their real beef should be directed at multi-national corporations.

In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth.

I know your own twisted tea party conception of the American Dream is rife with social Darwinist overtones, but that's simply not the general consensus.

And you can examine the poles of society as representative of the general disorder. If royal lines of inheritance and elite social circles exist, where all real economic, social, and political power are vested, how does every person truly have a shot at "rags-to-riches"?

I'm not arguing for equality of outcomes, I'm arguing for a more complete equality of opportunity. Economic, social, and political opportunity have been concentrated in a very specific sector of the population for a while now. And it's definitely not "the government's" fault. I love how "the government" is such a monolithic thing to you guys. It's cute.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys are seriously confused. I love how conservative libertarians always bemoan the government, though their real beef should be directed at multi-national corporations.

No, the government is the root of the problem because it enables banks and big corporations and other special interest groups Goldman Sachs can't come to my door and demand I give them money or they will shoot me. But they can get their ex CEO to become Secretary of the Treasury and give them trillions of dollars on flimsy pretexts.
Liberals always think government will stick up for the little guy; in reality government will always be owned by the rich dudes.

[Splorf22]

Also I am basically for equality. We have CEOs and shit being paid literally hundreds of millions of dollars and for what? So they can have luxury yachts and burn up our limited petroleum flying around to a different city every night? In the mean time we have billions of people living in abject poverty (note: almost none of them live in the United States). I read stuff like "an aircraft carrier could supply clean water to some huge number of people" and wince.

What you fail to understand, however, is that equality comes at the cost of liberty. Because the world isn't fair. If you are going to try and make it fair, it must come at the cost of taking from Peter to pay Paul. Now in and of itself thats not a knockout, but then we have the second problem: using the government to "fix" equality simply doesn't work. Big government is simply too corrupt and too inefficient.

Also WTF is up with you using some random dude writing a book in 1931 to supersede the Declaration of Independence as the definition of the American Dream? That's just weird.

[Malice_Mizer]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also WTF is up with you using some random dude writing a book in 1931 to supersede the Declaration of Independence as the definition of the American Dream? That's just weird.

Not even going to touch your talking-points diatribe there. You've subscribed to the, "Big govurnmint sux" ideology and that's your problem. I disdain the immorality of excessive wealth more than I cling to some vague and naive concept of liberty or some political document drafted by slave-holders declaring that all men are equal. But I digress.

The "American Dream" isn't even referenced in the Declaration of Independence. It is the basis for it, sure, but the concept of the American Dream came after, and has changed radically as society changes. For instance, home-ownership became a vital aspect of the "American Dream" for many Americans after WW2 and the GI Bill. Graduating from college is a big part of the "American Dream" for many Americans. These are all new goals of importance and status to American society, developing roughly since the 1950's. The Founder's ideas of what success meant is radically different from our's. In fact, their ideas of what was ethical and moral in the face of unfettered economic pursuit is radically different from where Americans' values are today.

Stop the civic worship already. It's gross. I don't need Thomas Jefferson to tell me what's right or wrong. I don't get my morals from a political document.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not even going to touch your talking-points diatribe there. You've subscribed to the, "Big govurnmint sux" ideology and that's your problem. I disdain the immorality of excessive wealth more than I cling to some vague and naive concept of liberty or some political document drafted by slave-holders declaring that all men are equal. But I digress.

wow this paragraph is mind blowing in its departure from logic

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've subscribed to the, "Big govurnmint sux" ideology and that's your problem.

No, I have empirically noticed the vast and numerous failures of big government literally everywhere it has been tried (China's bridges to no where and empty cities, the collapse of the soviet union, Italy/Spain's ongoing economic collapse, US bank bailouts, Nazi Germany, the list just goes on and on). Big government has never worked - probably your best case is Scandinavia and they are a) racially homogenous and b) very small. Unfortunately it seems to be unavoidable given the asymmetry of information between the voter and the bureaucrat.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys are seriously confused

i'm honestly confused about the intent of malice_morons most recent post or how it's pertinent to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love how conservative libertarians always bemoan the government, though their real beef should be directed at multi-national corporations.

he includes ad hominem attacks against republicans (i'm a democrat in america but a socialist in reality), so is he just assuming everybody is a republican just because black people are capable of committing crimes?

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth.

he defines american dream, but does not apply it to the situation.

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know your own twisted tea party conception of the American Dream is rife with social Darwinist overtones, but that's simply not the general consensus.

more ad hominem attacks but still no point

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you can examine the poles of society as representative of the general disorder. If royal lines of inheritance and elite social circles exist, where all real economic, social, and political power are vested, how does every person truly have a shot at "rags-to-riches"?

so he's still talking about the 1% and how if you're not a part of it, you must be eating out of trash cans?

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not arguing for equality of outcomes, I'm arguing for a more complete equality of opportunity. Economic, social, and political opportunity have been concentrated in a very specific sector of the population for a while now

they'd have to leave the ghetto, first. end the worship-of-poverty, end the inequality.

Originally Posted by Malice_Moron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And it's definitely not "the government's" fault. I love how "the government" is such a monolithic thing to you guys. It's cute.

who the fuck blamed the government? i mentioned citizens united and how they gave the rights of corporations the same rights as individuals, but that's calling out the corporations and not government.

[Malice_Mizer]

I was talking to Sporf.

And you're definitely not a socialist. What's this "stop the worship of poverty" meme you're clinging to? Ignore the extremes of society? What the hell is that? The very fact that extreme poles exist within our society is a blatant display of the inherently unjust nature of our economic order.

For some reason you don't see how all of these issues intersect. Economics, race, politics, history-- nothing is in a vacuum. You're spouting social Darwinist attitudes on virtually every single issue I've seen you comment on.