sk starting points

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Install gamparse and look at hit distribution patterns. Look up old steel warrior threads (if they still exist) by yoda iirc.

If and when you find those old thesteelwarrior threads - I’m Bedavir. Yoda and I did some pretty epic investigations into hp vs ac. I was fairly active on the SK forums alongside Brael as well.

To my knowledge, TSW website no longer exists. RIP

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If and when you find those old thesteelwarrior threads - I’m Bedavir. Yoda and I did some pretty epic investigations into hp vs ac. I was fairly active on the SK forums alongside Brael as well.

To my knowledge, TSW website no longer exists. RIP

A saint posts amongst us.

[Jimjam]

I'm not saying your experience is worse than mine, merely ours are different. We clearly play and gear differently, which produces different results.

By combining our experiences we have a bigger dataset. I in no way meant to demean your experiences, particularly because I've been actually looking at your experiences you've reported and seeing how they match or mismatch my own knowledge and experience.

I never said starting stats don't matter. I was explaining the context of something which you keep getting hung up on, and tbh you seem to be saying it about dumping str.

You keep telling me to stop participating in the discussion, which is the forum equivalent of telling someone to shut up.

Imo the entire point of discussion is to explore and argue ideas, it would not be ideal for people lacking knowledge to take part. In fact, such participance is a great way to have a fresh set of eyes, ask questions and improve knowledge. I mean you don't know the full code of the game, yet keep posting. Should you relent posting just because you don't know the full details of how str impacts the game? I suggest not. You clearly have a lot of knowledge to share and it would be a shame if you weren't to ever post again!


Perhaps I made a mistake to have mirrored your language in the use of the word 'guessing'. I didn't mean guess as 'completely fabricated from nothing'. TBH I feel a little bit like you may have set a trap there by using the word then latching on to it so hard after I repeated it.

For clarity, I meant guess as 'make an inference based on the limited information we all have'.

Edit: i don't mean to denounce your parses - I'm not saying they are worthless, merely acknowledging the limitations. That is normal to do when discussing a dataset. Don't take it as an insult as your parse is very good. As previously mentioned I can get a parse to you in maybe a month. Remind me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not saying your experience is worse than mine, merely ours are different. We clearly play and gear differently, which produces different results.

By combining our experiences we have a bigger dataset. I in no way meant to demean your experiences, particularly because I've been actually looking at your experiences you've reported and seeing how they match or mismatch my own knowledge and experience.

I never said starting stats don't matter. I was explaining the context of something which you keep getting hung up on, and tbh you seem to be saying it about dumping str.

You keep telling me to stop participating in the discussion, which is the forum equivalent of telling someone to shut up.

Imo the entire point of discussion is to explore and argue ideas, it would not be ideal for people lacking knowledge to take part. In fact, such participance is a great way to have a fresh set of eyes, ask questions and improve knowledge. I mean you don't know the full code of the game, yet keep posting. Should you relent posting just because you don't know the full details of how str impacts the game? I suggest not. You clearly have a lot of knowledge to share and it would be a shame if you weren't to ever post again!


Perhaps I made a mistake to have mirrored your language in the use of the word 'guessing'. I didn't mean guess as 'completely fabricated from nothing'. TBH I feel a little bit like you may have set a trap there by using the word then latching on to it so hard after I repeated it.

For clarity, I meant guess as 'make an inference based on the limited information we all have'.

Edit: i don't mean to denounce your parses - I'm not saying they are worthless, merely acknowledging the limitations. That is normal to do when discussing a dataset. Don't take it as an insult as your parse is very good.

I apologize if I sound mean. That isn't my intent, I simply have to defend myself from trolls. There are multiple people trolling and attacking this thread, so it can sometimes be difficult to determine if you are being sincere or not. Posters like Troxx are certainly not being sincere.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not telling you to stop participating.

I have not set any traps for anybody. You have simply admitted that you do not have a factual basis upon which to base your current claims. I appreciate that you are willing to admit that. You are doing what most people in this thread cannot, which is awesome!

If you want to bring meaningful discussion to a factual conversation, you need to provide evidence. That is all I am asking. You are confusing people by trying to say "20 STR is going to give you a noticeable boost to DPS". You do not know this by your own admission, and therefore you should not say it in a manner that sounds like it is a fact.

You can say it is your guess and opinion that the DPS boost from 20 STR would be significant. That way people know you are not making a statement of fact. There is nothing wrong with that. Then people can look at the evidence I have provided, and the opinions you have provided, and make a decision. Or even better, you provide evidence proving your claim, so we can all benefit from the knowledge. You need to understand that I would love to be proven wrong. If we can get concrete evidence one way or the other, it will help everybody.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM can you post your turtle logs? I'd like to do some parsing.

Also, open invitation: if anyone wants to do some strength testing I'm happy to provide a healer.

They are already posted!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300

Links to the logs are in the descriptions of the youtube videos I have provided. The post above links to another earlier post I made which explained the DPS videos. That is where the video are linked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ouLQOBAoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

Here are the video links directly.

[bcbrown]

Ah, I didn't know the actual logs were linked from the videos, thanks.

Before I start analysis, I'd like to know what you expect I'll find.

The 20 damage interval thing implies there should be 20 different unique hit values in each log, right? Do you expect a uniform distribution (each roughly equally frequent), a normal distribution (bell curve), or a beta distribution (in this case, a bell curve that's been skewed either higher or lower than usual)? Do you expect the same sort of distribution in both logs?

Do you expect there to be a difference across all 20 unique hit values? If so, do you expect it to be uniform (i.e. max_hit_more_strength - max_hit_less_strength == min_hit_more_strength - min_hit_less strength), or more of an impact at the top or bottom end?

I'll give my own answers before I start parsing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah, I didn't know the actual logs were linked from the videos, thanks.

Before I start analysis, I'd like to know what you expect I'll find.

The 20 damage interval thing implies there should be 20 different unique hit values in each log, right? Do you expect a uniform distribution (each roughly equally frequent), a normal distribution (bell curve), or a beta distribution (in this case, a bell curve that's been skewed either higher or lower than usual)? Do you expect the same sort of distribution in both logs?

Do you expect there to be a difference across all 20 unique hit values? If so, do you expect it to be uniform (i.e. max_hit_more_strength - max_hit_less_strength == min_hit_more_strength - min_hit_less strength), or more of an impact at the top or bottom end?

I'll give my own answers before I start parsing.

If you look at https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/attack.cpp , you will see that GetSTR() is only called once in the file, at line 970. That function is describing the formula I posted previously:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 350.

The final number of 350 is used to determine your max damage roll (before damage cap), and it is used in the mitigation function to determine if your damage should be reduced. Take a look at the Mob::RollD20(int offense, int mitigation) function.

The Offense Skill of my 24 Warrior is 125 at the moment. It might be slightly different on SK's, but not enough to be heavily significant. If my SK was put back at level 24, the formula would look like this:

125 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 250.

You would need to show that the mitigation formula is going to produce vastly difference results using the 350 and 343.3 (using 211 STR) numbers vs. the 250 and 243.3 (using 211 STR) numbers when fighting a mob of roughly equal level to prove Troxx's theory that the DPS difference would actually increase on a more difficult mob.

Otherwise, you can simply assume that if you do something like 50% less DPS at level 24 compared to level 60, the DPS difference will also simply decrease. The difference between 67 and 70 is 3 DPS, and the difference between 33.5 and 35 DPS is 1.5 DPS. My current data when looking at both the 1H test and the 2H test shows an average difference of 1.5 DPS, so it would actually be more like a 0.75 DPS difference at level 24.

You can math out how much damage that is per hour, assuming you are fighting non-stop. 3600 seconds x 0.75 = 2700 damage. Realistically you are doing much less damage than that because you are not fighting non-stop for an hour straight. Mobs around level 24 have about 800 HP I believe, so its 3 kills per hour at best. It is more likely to be something like 1 extra kill per hour, due to the fact that you will be taking breaks, travelling between mobs, etc.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You demand evidence, then reject it for asinine reasons;

This sums you up perfectly. I have provided evidence. You have not. You reject my evidence for asinine reasons, and then start trolling to try and discredit me and the evidence.

If this was such an easy thing for you to prove, you would have done it long ago, instead of posting things like:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM is just clearly not intellectually qualified to be dealing with this.

This is trolling behavior, and you are not helping your side by doing it. Insults provide zero value to the conversation, and do not prove anything.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I apologize if I sound mean. That isn't my intent, I simply have to defend myself from trolls. There are multiple people trolling and attacking this thread, so it can sometimes be difficult to determine if you are being sincere or not. Posters like Troxx are certainly not being sincere.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not telling you to stop participating.

I have not set any traps for anybody. You have simply admitted that you do not have a factual basis upon which to base your current claims. I appreciate that you are willing to admit that. You are doing what most people in this thread cannot, which is awesome!

If you want to bring meaningful discussion to a factual conversation, you need to provide evidence. That is all I am asking. You are confusing people by trying to say "20 STR is going to give you a noticeable boost to DPS". You do not know this by your own admission, and therefore you should not say it in a manner that sounds like it is a fact.

You can say it is your guess and opinion that the DPS boost from 20 STR would be significant. That way people know you are not making a statement of fact. There is nothing wrong with that. Then people can look at the evidence I have provided, and the opinions you have provided, and make a decision. Or even better, you provide evidence proving your claim, so we can all benefit from the knowledge. You need to understand that I would love to be proven wrong. If we can get concrete evidence one way or the other, it will help everybody.



They are already posted!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300

Links to the logs are in the descriptions of the youtube videos I have provided. The post above links to another earlier post I made which explained the DPS videos. That is where the video are linked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ouLQOBAoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

Here are the video links directly.

Nobody is trolling, it's more exasperation; having a discussion with you is completely pointless because you do not listen to reason, even in response to several very knowledgeable and articulate people spelling it out for you. That's not to say just because more people believe something it's right, but in this case there are factual logical answers that have been presented that you simply refuse or are incapable of engaging with. You've done for this thread what petroleum companies have done for the consensus on climate change-- distorted the signal to noise ratio in favor of far more poorly supported and discredited hypotheses.

You demand evidence, then reject it for asinine reasons; you present "math" or "facts" and then use them for deeply flawed conclusions, and when those flaws are pointed out to you, you don't engage with the logic, you simply ask for "evidence". It's entirely circular. On a very fundamental level, you clearly have a pathological relationship with systemic thinking. Your inability to actually absorb anything anyone is telling you and argue soundly from premises to conclusions should preclude you from giving people advice. Luckily, by now you have no credibility among anyone here. Unfortunately, any newcomer who finds this thread may perceive the illusion of a lack of consensus with regard to starting stats because of 45 pages of truly braindead attempts at reasoning on behalf of INT.

[bcbrown]

DSM can you post your turtle logs? I'd like to do some parsing.

Also, open invitation: if anyone wants to do some strength testing I'm happy to provide a healer.

[Lune]

^ Not to mention he's already admitted he doesn't care about any DPS increase from +20 STR because STR gear is so easy to get and that provides "enough" DPS. Have fun with that one.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is more likely to be something like 1 extra kill per hour, due to the fact that you will be taking breaks, travelling between mobs, etc.

Three things:

1. Thank you for the link to the code, that will be helpful
2. You didn't answer any of my questions
3. If my starting stat allocations results in one extra kill per hour, I'd be overjoyed. How many extra kills per hour will 20 int provide?

My own answers:
I'm expecting a uniform distribution of 20 unique hit values on an even-con mob. On a significantly lower-leveled mob, I'd expect the distribution to skew higher. I expect a similar increase across the entire distribution with added strength, and I also expect the distribution to skew very slightly higher, probably well within the realm of statistical noise for a sample of this size.