Enchanter OP impact poll

[cd288]

Except the primary issue in charm being not as dangerous is channeling which will nerf all casting classes

[G13]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed; somehow the focus on charming got lost. If anything we need to be nerfing Druids and Necromancers as a byproduct of any fix, not Wizards. Druids/Necros were known for their soloing power in classic, but not for the amazing power of their charms.

Fix charm and it's not "oh we accidentally nerf some other classes unclassicly", it's "the whole server goes back to when charm wasn't as powerful ... ie. the way it was on live".

You are using the same flawed reasoning as the OP

Just because they weren't known for the amazing power of their charms doesn't mean the spell wasn't as powerful back then. The vast majority of players just played differently back then as opposed to now. We have 20 years of trial and error gameplay to work with now. It can't be understated how important that is.

Reverse charming has only been a mainstream soloing tactic since around 2016 when the popularity of videos on youtube showed it's viability. The tactic was really more of a byproduct of the solo artist challenge when players devised new ways to conquer content solo with the tools of classes like necros, shamans and enchanters

Keep in mind that reverse charming does not require the pet to be held very long, so it's pointless to be pushing for a nerf in how long pets can be held. They don't need to be held for very long.

If the OP gets what he wants, Shamans will probably be nerfed harder than any other class. Keep that in mind.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed; somehow the focus on charming got lost. If anything we need to be nerfing Druids and Necromancers as a byproduct of any fix, not Wizards. Druids/Necros were known for their soloing power in classic, but not for the amazing power of their charms.

Fix charm and it's not "oh we accidentally nerf some other classes unclassicly", it's "the whole server goes back to when charm wasn't as powerful ... ie. the way it was on live".

To do this change we will need a meta analysis of thousands of lines of unsourceable logs, which is the same standard as what the current implementation was held up to and not just bodged in as you claim(!)

[Byrjun]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thread has concluded: Yes, discrepancies in channelling, resists, connections and FPS may have made enchanters more powerful than classic.

The biggest factor that I guess people forgot about is that everyone sucked in classic. Enchanters were near unanimously agreed upon to be the worst class in the game since mez was considered a garbage spell (what's the point of a stun that breaks on damage?) and charm was considered way more risk than it was worth.

You know how much worse groups are when you have players who don't understand not to break mez? Back in the day that was 90%+ of players. Enchanters could have been even more broken back then but no one would realize because the class requires that players know what they're doing.

[azxten]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are using the same flawed reasoning as the OP

Just because they weren't known for the amazing power of their charms doesn't mean the spell wasn't as powerful back then. The vast majority of players just played differently back then as opposed to now. We have 20 years of trial and error gameplay to work with now. It can't be understated how important that is.

Reverse charming has only been a mainstream soloing tactic since around 2016 when the popularity of videos on youtube showed it's viability. The tactic was really more of a byproduct of the solo artist challenge when players devised new ways to conquer content solo with the tools of classes like necros, shamans and enchanters

Keep in mind that reverse charming does not require the pet to be held very long, so it's pointless to be pushing for a nerf in how long pets can be held. They don't need to be held for very long.

If the OP gets what he wants, Shamans will probably be nerfed harder than any other class. Keep that in mind.

Please stop derailing the thread. It is factually proven pre kunark charm was not used because it was very buggy as was any pet let alone a charmed one. Channeling was harder and pets were dangerous until later classic pre kunark. Big surprise once pet bugs were fixed they also got nerfed across the board.

I don't hear you arguing to allow fine steel delay for pets even though it's classic. Charm is the same. Once pets weren't killing their owners with trains verant saw they were OP and nerfed them.

Who charmed CT? A bard because a charm nerf on mob level cap was overlooked for them. Should we put this in game?

Charm was so buggy it practically didn't exist until late classic era. Your attempts to keep pushing the player knowledge angle are just derailing. Sure some players were bad but across dozens of live servers with 5x the population of P99 each where people killed guards cause no camps were open I assure you charm was thoroughly understood to be shitty. It was only a giant CC option at high level play and an outdoor zones with sow solo option. Rarely it is referred to as an emergency roll the dice CC on a bad pull that might save a group when it was already doomed. That is how little it was trusted. It was the thing to use when you were already going to die.

Also one thing to add, early Enchanters gave their animations fine steel and were massively pissed off about that nerf because they saw themselves as a pet class. There are tons of posts from them complaining about this and feeling worthless where they also openly state charm is unreliable garbage that gets them killed regardless of how high their CHA

An Enchanter who maxed CHA on creation for spell success and knew to give fine steel to their animation was just too dumb to charm a pet and give it fine steel instead? Come on...

A charmed fine steel buffed enchanter pet would have been an insane beast in classic but that narrative didn't exist. Instead Necro pets were considered to rule the high levels where they could even solo a 50 warrior in a duel.

Stop derailing. Everyone who is honest can admit pre kunark charm was nothing like P99 and our version is closer to Velious era. Even FOH in era post states the reason charm was used starting in Velious was the number of dungeons with room to kite and CC charmed mobs. Indoor dungeon charming in classic and kunark wasn't a thing except in certain situations like giants or emergency CC or at best temporary DPS that was killed end of fight due to the risk to chanter. All in era posts support this. There is nothing in classic era or referencing classic era that says otherwise.

The supposed guide mentioned previously as being in era and saying charm is great was called out as from POP era.

[G13]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please stop derailing the thread. It is factually proven pre kunark charm was not used because it was very buggy as was any pet let alone a charmed one. Channeling was harder and pets were dangerous until later classic pre kunark. Big surprise once pet bugs were fixed they also got nerfed across the board.

I don't hear you arguing to allow fine steel delay for pets even though it's classic. Charm is the same. Once pets weren't killing their owners with trains verant saw they were OP and nerfed them.

Who charmed CT? A bard because a charm nerf on mob level cap was overlooked for them. Should we put this in game?

Charm was so buggy it practically didn't exist until late classic era. Your attempts to keep pushing the player knowledge angle are just derailing. Sure some players were bad but across dozens of live servers with 5x the population of P99 each where people killed guards cause no camps were open I assure you charm was thoroughly understood to be shitty. It was only a giant CC option at high level play and an outdoor zones with sow solo option. Rarely it is referred to as an emergency roll the dice CC on a bad pull that might save a group when it was already doomed. That is how little it was trusted. It was the thing to use when you were already going to die.

You haven't proven anything

You are attempting to create a narrative. You have yet to provide any "facts" within this thread and we're 30+ pages in

[azxten]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You haven't proven anything

You are attempting to create a narrative. You have yet to provide any "facts" within this thread and we're 30+ pages in

Except channeling which you then immediately try to say everyone will cry about it and enchanter won't even care blah blah blah. The same tired arguments on and on.

Sounds good. Nerf channeling I can't wait to play classic again. If Enchanters are fine that's great. We all know they won't be though. They're a paper thin class that doesn't start with multiple stuns.

Oh and that SK who saves you regularly with disease cloud? He's gonna be channeling too. So when your tank has a mob on them and mez breaks and your stun is being interrupted because you have two mobs on you and you can't cast he will also be interrupted.

Your delusions about Enchanters not caring about channeling rate and fear mongering that everyone will be nerfed are just that. Delusions and fear mongering in defiance of classic evidence.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the OP gets what he wants, Shamans will probably be nerfed harder than any other class. Keep that in mind.

I literally don't care who gets nerfed: I saw the recent bug report about Torpor draining mana and it made me [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I care about is that this place is for classic EverQuest ... and charming clearly isn't classic here.

For the millionth time, the 20x Enchanter players on live tried using their spell list to do things; we do not have some secret knowledge they don't! What we have is too generous charm resist rolls, or some similar "hard to prove is wrong because no one has evidence of what exactly is right" core mechanic.

[G13]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except channeling which you then immediately try to say everyone will cry about it and enchanter won't even care blah blah blah. The same tired arguments on and on.

Sounds good. Nerf channeling I can't wait to play classic again. If Enchanters are fine that's great. We all know they won't be though. They're a paper thin class that doesn't start with multiple stuns.

Oh and that SK who saves you regularly with disease cloud? He's gonna be channeling too. So when your tank has a mob on them and mez breaks and your stun is being interrupted because you have two mobs on you and you can't cast he will also be interrupted.

Your delusions about Enchanters not caring about channeling rate and fear mongering that everyone will be nerfed are just that. Delusions and fear mongering in defiance of classic evidence.

Nerfing channeling will have no impact on Enchanters

It will heavily nerf every other casting class however, so again, this thread is a complete waste of time

[TripSin]

Loramin and azxten aren't even worth discussing with. They are immune to reason and logic. This thread is an absolute clown fiesta created by a clown and the majority of people don't agree with them. This isn't the first time Azxten has made this thread and it won't be the last. Guy let's a private emulator of a 20-year-old elf sim trigger him for like 10 years now. It's so sad.