Project Quarm - 1 Box Planes of Power

[Toxigen]

Secrets thinks ShowEQ won't be an issue.

lol

I was gung-ho for this server but I'm pulling back a bit now.

[Secrets]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Secrets thinks ShowEQ won't be an issue.

lol

I was gung-ho for this server but I'm pulling back a bit now.

I don't think it'll be an issue because I'm not committing to telling anyone exactly when and how they'll be caught, and if they want to fuck around and find out, they are welcome to waste multiple weeks, or months of their lives.

I feel strongly to the point where we'll be able to systematically remove these people every so often so that their time is wasted accordingly to the time it takes me to implement extra detection.

It does take longer to hit 50/60/65 with AAs than it does to implement extra measures, after all. And it only takes one detection to irrevocably remove a character.

[aussenseiter]

"Come eat at my restaurant, I won't punch you in the head"

*punches you in the head*

[Trexller]

Originally Posted by aussenseiter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Come eat at my restaurant, I won't punch you in the head"

*punches you in the head*

but the meal is free, and was prepared better than most other restaurants will serve it.

[Secrets]

Originally Posted by aussenseiter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Come eat at my restaurant, I won't punch you in the head"

*punches you in the head*

To be very clear, our rules do state that ShowEQ, MySEQ and MQ are against the rules. I've never stated that they aren't, or that our stance is set in stone.

If we catch you deserving a punch in the head, we'll give you a punch in the head. That has always been my stance.

I think the important part here is that people, on their own volition, took "We're not going to be actively looking for map programs because we don't currently see a situation in which they'd be actively able to benefit" as "We're not doing this, ever. It's pointless." and that's simply not the case.

The posts here have kind of struck me as some sort of clamoring on the latter assumption, not the former fact or the rules themselves.

I would rather spend my time on fixing bugs and other development tasks post-launch, as spending a ton of time on cheat detection takes away from the quality of the server.

If cheating becomes a problem, I will make sure there isn't one.

Based on this thread alone, and the excitement of folks 'looking forward to' cheating, it's likely that there will be more work to do than what I have already done before launch.

[aussenseiter]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be very clear, our rules do state that ShowEQ, MySEQ and MQ are against the rules. I've never stated that they aren't, or that our stance is set in stone.

If we catch you deserving a punch in the head, we'll give you a punch in the head. That has always been my stance.

I think the important part here is that people, on their own volition, took "We're not going to be actively looking for map programs because we don't currently see a situation in which they'd be actively able to benefit" as "We're not doing this, ever. It's pointless." and that's simply not the case.

The posts here have kind of struck me as some sort of clamoring on the latter assumption, not the former fact or the rules themselves.

I would rather spend my time on fixing bugs and other development tasks post-launch, as spending a ton of time on cheat detection takes away from the quality of the server.

If cheating becomes a problem, I will make sure there isn't one.

Based on this thread alone, and the excitement of folks 'looking forward to' cheating, it's likely that there will be more work to do than what I have already done before launch.

Withdrawn, cheers!

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

because we don't currently see a situation in which they'd be actively able to benefit

While I liked the spirit of your post, I found this part a bit ... hard to swallow. You really can't see how someone can benefit from being to tell exactly what nameds are up, and what they are wielding, from across the zone? Really? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And if you do (I really don't see how you can't), how exactly would you solve that problem without an anti-cheat mechanism, when a ShowEQ user (ie. cheater) is otherwise indistinguishable from a non-cheater? In other words, how can this be true:

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If cheating becomes a problem, I will make sure there isn't one.

P.S. I say this as someone who wants to play on (a cheat-free) Quarm.

[Seducio]

P99's success was not immediate. It came over time from committed devs and CSR team. When Blue was released there would have been no way to predict p99's current success. The trust here grew slowly from dev/staff participation and is actually still growing as best as I can tell.

Quarm will have a few 'popularity' tests along the way and if it passes those it has hooks within its via progression through four expansions to become quite popular. Each dropped expansion is a mini hype moment and can draw players back or get new players on board.

As long as CSR is handled and it appears it will be via code for blatant exploits and then dev enforcement rather than a whole team of CSRs like p99 has then confidence will grow in server over time. Whether this will be adequate will be observed by the player base who will respond by playing there or not.

Anti Cheats and handling of CSR concerns separate the fake servers from the potential real ones. That's how Blue grew confidence in the community to get so many of us deeply on board with Green. Other devs took note and it appears Secrets has taken note.

I'm not going to be a Debbie Downer on this one like some of the old farts on this board. I remain in the hopeful category.

[Seducio]

I see where you are coming from Loramin. I also see where the Quarm team is at also. Heavy handed early 'invasive enforcement' commitments may be less effective than what Secrets is planning. Secrets also has expressed a different philosophy than p99s enforcement mechanisms.

When it comes to Anti Cheats many devs across the online gaming industry we have to resort to invasiveness of the user's device info, sending data back to devs of possible current programs running and processes the machine is using, and IP connection that is connected to the server. Not to mention IP hunting across multiple services to catch the RMTers, which many here are ok with. If someone did the same maneuvers on your grandma however you'd probably consider legal action. As the maneuvers could be misconstrued as Identity Theft.

The counter argument that Anti Cheat is very important to focus on so that the players can feel they are in a world that is fair. An example would be juicing and drug testing in Professional Sports. At the Olympic level and Pro sports level athletes submit to drug testing to make sure they aren't on steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. They have their blood drawn etc. So the question philosophically is the juice with the squeeze?

To make a popular server like p99 the answer might be a resounding yes.

In addition to training proper CSR etiquette for dealing with actual humans, devs have to be concerned with CSR over eagerness and that in some situations they look like Paul Blart the mall cop who don't realize they aren't law enforcement however. Basically nerds with power they shouldn't have. Devs here on p99 as well as Secrets have seen both the failures and successes in the Emu scene in this regard.

P99 devs biggest headaches have probably come from their Anti Cheats rubbing folks the wrong way who considered them invasive, a few of their CSR folks who went rogue, and old agreements with Daybreak and others that might not make as much sense now as they did when they were signed.

Secrets is less ok with this level of invasiveness due the excess level of private info he has witnessed other organizations collect when they perform invasive Anti Cheat mechanisms on online games. He evolved to think that some devs go too far in what they are collecting about you and have running the background that you don't know about.

It's possible that the level of invasiveness that some online companies such as Riot currently employ could at a future date become illegal. Imagine a online gaming company accidently finding out super high level political info like a mini Hunter Biden type scenario or possible accidental capture of classified DoD documents. It's also possible the level of invasiveness some companies are willing to to employ will only increase if the laws remain as they are. Most users currently will give up privacy for convenience and this is taken advantage of by devs seeking to create popular free products.

Some have figured out that if a product is free. You are the product.

[Seducio]

*is the juice worth the squeeze?