SK Race Choice

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Be exceedingly thankful I even admitted to insulting you. I at least have the integrity to do that.

You lack the integrity to even admit you don't like winning a debate, yet still remain in threads. That comment should solidify the idea that you are indeed untrustworthy.

If you want to participate in the debate and prove me wrong, post about the topic at hand next time. Bring logic and evidence. So far zero of your posts are on topic.

Trolling people proves nothing other than you are a troll.

[Gloomlord]

"I know he's right about me, so the only thing I have left is to point out how this is off topic"

I've already participated in debate with you in the thread about a 4 man caster group. We saw how well that went, didn't we?

[Duik]

This thread is sill going. Not trolling Deeply Sunk Fist. Just pointing out, a simple question turns into, well this shit fight.
OMFG roflmfao lolocaust.
What was the question again? Ok. Torpor good. Regen not needed. Troll regen good and bad. Being snared good. Waffle waffle.
Hold my beer.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't matter that the HP to Mana ratio on Regrowth is better than Torpor. You are regenerating much slower when compared to Torpor. You cannot compare Torpor and Regrowth. Torpor is an actual healing spell that provides significant mitigation over a short period. Regrowth is a small boost to HP regeneration that gives you the full benefit over a long period.

If a mob deals 1000 damage in 30 seconds, Regrowth would have only saved 75 HP out of that 1000. You are going to need a lot more mitigation. Torpor would mitigate the full 1000, and heal you for an extra 200-500.

You can use Regrowth if you want of course, but you should swap it for a more important buff if you are running into the spell slot limit. Torpor is overshadowing Regrowth by a large margin. Regrowth is only improving your regeneration by 5% when using Torpor.

This is a limited way to analyze the effects of regen imo.

The benefit is more in the long term. A troll with fungi and regrowth will regen 42 hp/tick at level 60. That’s 14% of what torpor does, that is working for you at all times below 100%. If you find yourself in a sustained grinding session, this will add up to quite a lot over time. There’s a chance it could save your life if you get into some dicey scenarios. There’s a chance it couldn’t save your life. I really can’t prove this.

What it will do is lower your required apm over an extended period of time. Depending on how active you are, you might never need to torpor yourself, or less often, and subsequently not having to canni more on torpor mana spent. That amount of regen is essentially a free torpor every 3-3.5 minutes. I was in the hole for about 6 hours the other day helping a buddy with an epic. I was glad to have the regen, that’s a lot of free torpor’s. Maybe my APM bucket is lower than others, but people eventually do get fatigued and decide to stop playing. It’s no different than bards who decide to use stopsong. Theres a potential value add when you’re doing less keystrokes, even though you don’t need stopsong to play a bard.

With a class that demands such a high level of APM to maintain mana levels, I find this to be a significant value add. Whether or not people agree on this is irrelevant. It is a measurable benefit, regardless of how much value you assign to it, and people can decide whether or not they choose to ignore this.

[Snaggles]

With so much of this game being opinion based on weighing of benefit vs disadvantage I don’t understand why some people can’t simply agree more regen is free canni, thus free mana.

One torp is:

Cast torp
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4

11 clicks within 30 seconds. It’s a lot of mana but it’s a lot of work. Like a fungi on any other class you can still sit for regenning that last bit or just run around and it will come back eventually. This is a qualify of life effect. You CAN also take the boat or run to most locations in the game, ports make things better. The same argument can be made they aren’t necessary to play the game.

My issue is when people hold their anecdotal “evidence” too proudly. In all my EQ years I’ve only seen a few examples of what appears a professional statistician fixating on a video game and doing research. My own testing is useful (for me) but less reliable, I NEVER indicate it’s the law due to short sampling and less the perfect testing. I probably have 500+ Vindi parses currently in my logs. I can draw some conclusions but I haven’t confined variables and ran a parse on him for like 1,000 hours. My data curve is still wobbly.

My other issue is when people never admit they are wrong if proven so, or even allow the possibility they might not be correct. So much of what we hold to be scientific law is actually scientific theory. Stuff that we base life death decisions on. If you believe your nerd science is infallible but scientists still won’t believe relativity is, well, you might be the dumb one.

Both of these pet peeves are due to overt pride and ignorance. It’s a two-step process of believing your testing is infallible and then the vanity to actually posture to others about it ignoring any feedback or even personal doubt (which should be a burden of most).

I understand some here may take personal offense. Even saying the proposal is trolling behavior. It’s not intended as such. These are general complaints about a subsection of people who discuss in this way. Best case they are delusional but believe to be pushing absolute truth (like many engaging in holy wars), worst case they know they might be wrong and just dig-in out of pride.

Tl;Dr:
-Some stuff is easily measurable, some stuff is almost impossible without an arduous setup
-People can make personal opinions valuing one benefit over another, they can still succeed at the game
- People who are never wrong are exhausting and likely are more than they know (or admit)

Of all the topics in EQ I’ve always been most exhausted with SK stat ones. It’s also a class that is inherently selfish to play and is moderately useful (albeit fun!). People get more invested in ogre vs dark elf than if what weapons a rogue or monk should use which is absolutely more important and less personal than fatty or not. For the love of God, stop using adamantite clubs in 2023.

[Troxx]

I once completed a successful high end group without my pants equipped on my warrior. This is a game and games are based on rules and math. My pants were not needed to successfully win these encounters.

I therefore assert that pants are not needed and thus do not need to be worn.

Time for us all to play commando guys!

[Snaggles]

This is a game where a couple extra tinfoil hats make up the stat loss from no-pants.

[Duik]

A group full of barbarian shaman sans pets is also without pants.

[Gloomlord]

I have a feeling, from what you've just said, Snaggles, is that DSM is just a contrarian troll.

Even a person who is relatively new to EQ will quickly discover the pointlessness of increasing the SK mana pool. Yet here we get DSM again, coincidentally making a point noone agrees with.

This is the same person who thinks shaman is a better fit for a 4 man caster group with 2 charms than a magician. He then proclaims that groups will allow root rotting in a charm group, just to prove the point that shamans are indeed a more worthwhile candidate for this group.

Almost noone will disagree with you about what you said about regen and shamans, but DSM is kicking up a massive fuss about this. If it were this thread alone, I'd be giving him the benefit of the doubt, but he's squandered all trust we might have had for him now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a limited way to analyze the effects of regen imo.

The benefit is more in the long term. A troll with fungi and regrowth will regen 42 hp/tick at level 60. That’s 14% of what torpor does, that is working for you at all times below 100%. If you find yourself in a sustained grinding session, this will add up to quite a lot over time. There’s a chance it could save your life if you get into some dicey scenarios. There’s a chance it couldn’t save your life. I really can’t prove this.

What it will do is lower your required apm over an extended period of time. Depending on how active you are, you might never need to torpor yourself, or less often, and subsequently not having to canni more on torpor mana spent. That amount of regen is essentially a free torpor every 3-3.5 minutes. I was in the hole for about 6 hours the other day helping a buddy with an epic. I was glad to have the regen, that’s a lot of free torpor’s. Maybe my APM bucket is lower than others, but people eventually do get fatigued and decide to stop playing. It’s no different than bards who decide to use stopsong. Theres a potential value add when you’re doing less keystrokes, even though you don’t need stopsong to play a bard.

With a class that demands such a high level of APM to maintain mana levels, I find this to be a significant value add. Whether or not people agree on this is irrelevant. It is a measurable benefit, regardless of how much value you assign to it, and people can decide whether or not they choose to ignore this.

Thank you for posting in a cordial manner. Please do not read this in a sarcastic way. I am being genuine.

I understand the logic, and it makes sense. I was not trying to say that your theory is off base to the point it is not worth discussing. When I am getting attacked by multiple posters simultaneously, forgive me if I lose a little bit of patience at times.

The reason why I am skeptical about the APM argument is because when you are fighting mobs with Torpor, you are not always able to cannibalize. This is because mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks.

To stay alive in a fight like Ionat, you need to know when to cannibalize, and when to let Torpor recover your HP. You also need to fit in the other spells you need to cast into your rotation.

I have fought 4+ and 6+ Dragons with and without Regrowth. I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

I haven't noticed a difference in my APM with and without Regrowth when fighting mobs with Torpor. I have been playing a Shaman for years too. This is why I caution against claiming that you will get a noticeable APM benefit. I am not saying you are getting nothing, but if it ends up being 1 APM, most people are probably not going to rush out and buy a Fungi to get that. Based on my observation that most Torpor Shamans are not wearing Fungi on a regular basis, I am confident that other people understand this, even if it is at a subconscious level. Torpor Shamans wouldn't get Vindi BPs to replace Fungis.

That is why we need to clarify at least a rough estimate of how much APM you will get back, so people can make the decision themselves, instead of making a guess as to what you meant by "It improves APM". I posted the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 Ionat video because you can actually go through it and check to see if there was a certain point in the fight where extra regen from a Fungi would have allowed me to cannibalize, or do something else. You can get a rough APM improvement number from that, and we can discuss it.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...

Tl;Dr:
-Some stuff is easily measurable, some stuff is almost impossible without an arduous setup
-People can make personal opinions valuing one benefit over another, they can still succeed at the game
- People who are never wrong are exhausting and likely are more than they know (or admit)

The problem with this line of thinking is you are clearly biased against me. It is probably due to people repeating strawmen and lies, which influences how you read my posts. The fact that you think I am "never wrong" simply proves you don't read what I post, and you are making assumptions about me. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums, and you can look back into the post history to check.

If you were actually concerned about giving posters advise, you would be talking to the people who clearly troll others in an attempt to shut down the conversation. That is a much stronger indication of arrogance and pride. The fact that I am willing to go out and provide evidence for my claims shows that I am not arrogant enough to assume I am correct, simply because I say so. I back up what I say.

It is quite telling that people only have advise for me, and none of the other posters who are clearly acting worse. If you were being consistent, you wouldn't stop at giving me advise. You would tell Troxx to stop bloating threads with silly gifs when he is being arrogant and assuming he cannot be wrong. You would tell Gloomlord that posting hundreds of off-topic posts simply to "criticize" someone is not productive, and simply bloats the thread.