Dallas erupts in gunfire at BLM protest

[Archalen]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I skimmed some of this and it seems like a gigantic mess. Campbell claims that Minger isn't including enough potential confounding factors. Minger claims that Campbell doesn't bother with confounding factors when the data proves his point, and that he has never tied consumption of animal products to actual disease (only to things that are correlated with disease, like cholesterol). Esselstyn's article that you linked seems to mostly assume its conclusion to me.

Personally I have mostly abandoned the inductive approach to health. Things are simply so, so complicated. For example, there was a big study done that heart disease was much lower in the Mediterranean countries, and the authors suggested eating fish and olive oil. Well, it turns out that most of those people were Greek Orthodox, which contains an aggressive intermittent fasting program. Or China, for example, is a massive hotbed of industrial pollution. It wouldn't surprise me if the people in the cities were richer, eating more meat, and also exposed to more industrial chemicals. Or you have some cultures that are simply more stressful (Japan/USA) than others (South America/Western Europe). Or you may have (god forbid) nonlinear effects that aren't easily modeled no matter how many cofounders you add. And then of course we have to concern ourselves with the composition of the gut microbiome, which is tremendously important. So again, I just find the whole thing to be a gigantic mess.

Since I am not confident in inductive approaches, I proceed deductively. I'm most confident in Paleolithic foods like potatoes, grass fed meats, wild caught fish, organ meats, bone broth, vegetables, free range eggs, and small quantities of nuts. I'm moderately confident in traditionally prepared Neolithic foods like fermented raw milk products, soy sauce, sauerkraut, sprouted heirloom wheat, and white rice. And I'm least confident in Industrial foods that are heavily refined (sugar, corn syrup, vegetable oils), hybridized (fruit, wheat), or put animals in unhealthy environments (confinement beef, farm raised salmon, supermarket eggs, confinement dairy).

Anyway, I realize this is a bit of a dodge, but in the end I just feel that this kind of thing is too difficult to measure empirically to have really solid conclusions.

Some of what you mention is discussed further in the China Study. Those are serious questions.

I personally think one shouldn't discount either since science goes both ways, but understand the complexity factor.

Just to simplify it to a study that's much easier to talk about, the below study was conducted by Esselstyn and colleagues on reversing Heart Disease (which is incredibly hard to do historically; it's hard enough to just stop it, let alone reverse it). The diet is outlined in the study, plant-based, no added oils. There were 177 adherent (21 non-adherent) participants who had Cardiovascular Disease. Only one adherent patient had a cardiovascular event related to nutritional intervention after amending their diet. Out of the 21 non-adherents, 13 had cardiovascular events. You can see the PET scans show an increased bloodflow in adherents:

http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

1/177 versus 13/21 are some crazy numbers.

[Jarnauga]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah those stats come mostly out of liberal controlled inner cities such as http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...711-story.html
See here, reposting that vid from post# 156: Broke Party: Inner-City Blacks Abandoning Obama & Democrat's Liberal Agenda
That's exactly what it is, it's inner-city garbage, and the libs don't give a crap. But their suffering makes for the desired narrative, such as they got you thinking and posting about.

so what, big cities are not part of america now..? 30% of the USA live in a city wirth more than 5 million people, 75% of the population is considered urban..

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so what, big cities are not part of america now..? 30% of the USA live in a city wirth more than 5 million people, 75% of the population is considered urban..

When 0bama is out there with the us vs them narrative (and based on lies), it's not me saying inner-cities are not a part of America, it's the globalist elite like 0bama. I'll mention it again, I grew up in LA, btw. Cities really suck, and to my fellow countrymen if you live in a city, now is the time to start exploring your options to get out, even if you gotta commute an hour to work etc (I can feel the heat of Jarn's seething over the additional consumption of fuel by my suggestion hehe).

Yeah, this aint France, man. You know up north it's the law to carry a gun? Get raped by bears etc. It's not a gun problem, it's a criminal problem, and this administration's desperate attempts to divide the nation by fire.

[Raev]

It's definitely an impressive result, but at the same time it's easy for me to come up with some counter arguments.

First, it looks like Esselstyn recommends a diet of about 10-15% calories from fat. This will taste like cardboard, and as a result people will eat far fewer calories which will activate intermittent fasting/low calorie genes that are thought to be very effective vs heart disease and cancer.

Second, the study is on very shaky methodological ground. The participants are self-selected, not randomized, which instantly completely invalidates it as a tool for average people with heart disease. For obvious reasons there is no control group, and aside from the placebo effect the comparison of the adherent vs non-adherent groups is very misleading. Considering the willpower required to eat cardboard all day, it would not surprise me at all if the causality ran the other way: the people where the diet was failing got depressed or disgusted and hit the ice cream aisle.

Third, the Standard American Diet is just so so so so so fucking bad. Literally not a single thing the average American eats (confinement animal products, soybean oil, soda, wheat) is healthy. For example, we don't know what fraction of the results are due to the massive increase in vegetable consumption which probably fixed numerous nutrient deficiencies, or the reduction in inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids, etc.

Anyway, I don't say this to detract from Dr. Esselstyn's work (he seems like quite a boss, by the way. Olympic gold in rowing, tour in Vietnam, hundreds of peer reviewed publications). I think there is no question that his diet is healthier than the SAD (not hard to do, of course). But at the same time, I hope you can see why I don't find this kind of thing super convincing as the holy grail.

[Archalen]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's definitely an impressive result, but at the same time it's easy for me to come up with some counter arguments.

First, it looks like Esselstyn recommends a diet of about 10-15% calories from fat. This will taste like cardboard, and as a result people will eat far fewer calories which will activate intermittent fasting/low calorie genes that are thought to be very effective vs heart disease and cancer.

Second, the study is on very shaky methodological ground. The participants are self-selected, not randomized, which instantly completely invalidates it as a tool for average people with heart disease. For obvious reasons there is no control group, and aside from the placebo effect the comparison of the adherent vs non-adherent groups is very misleading. Considering the willpower required to eat cardboard all day, it would not surprise me at all if the causality ran the other way: the people where the diet was failing got depressed or disgusted and hit the ice cream aisle.

Third, the Standard American Diet is just so so so so so fucking bad. Literally not a single thing the average American eats (confinement animal products, soybean oil, soda, wheat) is healthy. For example, we don't know what fraction of the results are due to the massive increase in vegetable consumption which probably fixed numerous nutrient deficiencies, or the reduction in inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids, etc.

Anyway, I don't say this to detract from Dr. Esselstyn's work (he seems like quite a boss, by the way. Olympic gold in rowing, tour in Vietnam, hundreds of peer reviewed publications). I think there is no question that his diet is healthier than the SAD (not hard to do, of course). But at the same time, I hope you can see why I don't find this kind of thing super convincing as the holy grail.

Definitely not the holy grail, as you say lack of controls, which is unfortunate. One can come up with many many possible reasons why it worked so well. And he does admit the limitations at the end. But there is a kind of overall trend I see, where vegetarian seems to help overall health a little and complete plant-based seems to help it even more (like, an incredible amount more). There are biochemical analogues for their propositions as to what the data might indicate by the way (we know some mechanisms of fiber on heart disease for example), which is where mechanisms of nutrition comes into play to give viable explanations for what's happening in the general study (why I mentioned my opinion on science going all ways). So I guess I'm just saying that this study doesn't happen in a vacuum where explanations can be proposed ad. infinitum. Again, readily admit I'm no expert. There wasn't one study in particular that just blew me away, but an overall trend and some decent science. More to come I'm sure in the future. If it happens that Campell and Esseltyn are correct, the dairy and animal agribusiness isn't going to like that very much.

Forgot to mention that I make some meals from the China Study cookbook and there are some tasty meals in there which meet his criteria. Maybe if you go straight from standard American diet to that it might be a challenge, I did it in slow increments.

[Daywolf]

hah great rant vid:
Uncensored American Goes Off On Black Lives Matter
"Published on Jul 11, 2016

Infowars Reporter Joe Biggs Found this video on Social Media. It's of a Man Going off on Black Lives Matter in what might be one of the best rants of the year."

I looked for the original, I didn't want to take a lot of time trying to find it.

Oh and since I'm linking the channel, may as well post this up for Jarn: Europe On The Verge Of Civil War
That's that "push-back" like I was mentioning on the Brexit thread here. This is France today, not the beautiful oil painting some try to paint.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Archalen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

we know some mechanisms of fiber on heart disease for example

Like what? I'm curious because soluble fiber is food for probiotic bacteria, so causality could be extremely complex.

Originally Posted by Archalen

If it happens that Campell and Esseltyn are correct, the dairy and animal agribusiness isn't going to like that very much.

American corporatism strikes again [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It's just sad how big corporations own our government and control its policies. It reminds me of aspartame.

Originally Posted by Archalen

Forgot to mention that I make some meals from the China Study cookbook and there are some tasty meals in there which meet his criteria

I mean, if it works for you <shrug> It may or may not be optimal, but it's clearly better than McDonalds, so you are at least making a step in the right direction.

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's break this sentence down:

discernment: ability to judge well

assertation: statement

feckless: lacking in strength of character

Rewriting into simpler English gives: Daywolf, I'm still waiting on your ability to judge my statement that you are a coward without strength of character.

Which seems pretty nonsensical to me.

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well yes, because you wrote in nonsensically.

He's challenging Daywolf to reply to the question instead of going off on an irrelevant tangent like always.

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I suppose that's what he meant, but I don't think that's what he said. I could be wrong; I'm a computer scientist not an English major.

This seems to be the original quote, and it looks like Ahlgador is claiming Daywolf is a feckless coward because he didn't shoot police officers or blow up a building with a truck full of fertilizer.

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doubtful he's actually challenging Daywolf to do violence. I read it as 'if you really believe things are as bad as you claim, aren't you obligated to take action?' & 'Tone it down please'

I don't disagree with the sentiment and I think it's just a forums slapfight.

Originally Posted by Ahldagor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Essentially, yes. Daywolf's world view predetermines his perception, and I was holding out hope that he would step outside his echo chamber in order to see that. Likely, almost certainly, futile efforts. Though I do have a notion that some of his motivation is a feeling of lacking agency in his situation.

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah pretty much. He's just doing Ad Hominem's. People get upset when we go a little beyond the shitposting and use reference links etc to back our arguments. He just want's to call me out as a Troll e.g. one that just shitposts on a subject for sport but doesn't even believe what they are writing. He is trying to get me to drag in irl encounters on the subject so he can attack that, since he failed on the topic at hand. Textbook.

Daywolf, why didn't you keep up and just cherry picked what you quoted from Raev? Seriously, you should seek psychological help on narcissism and paranoia.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by Ahldagor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Daywolf, why didn't you keep up and just cherry picked what you quoted from Raev? Seriously, you should seek psychological help on narcissism and paranoia.

ooooooooooh you're going on about the blm link etc. Why didn't you just f'ing say so rather than playing your full retard game for a dozen posts over multiple days and on many pages of the thread. I mean it can be amusing initially, but eventually gets pretty damn annoying, especially in a juggernaut thread where it's not easy to backtrack w/o psychic powers.

Hell yeah I stand behind it. I explained why it doesn't matter regarding the guy being a card carrying member of any particular group or not. You just don't accept it and want to be a retard about it dragging vague posts across the thread rather than just readdressing the question/accusation in some understandable context.

Every lefty-lib here is so quick to bring up things like kkk and act as if every conserv here is secretly sending funds to the high dragon or whatever his position title is. But when this guy mentions that he was angry over what BLM was saying and then he went out to murder "white people and cops", suddenly this is all just about some lone gunman and the influences of BLM and 0bamas war on America just has absolutely nothing to do with it. All the chanting of "dead cops" in demonstrations etc, just all fluffy kitten normal and in no way could effect anyone.

Pathetic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[insert pic of shooter with his black power fist in the air]
[insert pics of 0bama and Hillary blaming whites and cops]
[insert pics of all the libtards voluntarily packing their bags for Europe or Africa after the Don landslides this election]
[insert pics of me roflmao]

[Archalen]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like what? I'm curious because soluble fiber is food for probiotic bacteria, so causality could be extremely complex.


American corporatism strikes again [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It's just sad how big corporations own our government and control its policies. It reminds me of aspartame.


I mean, if it works for you <shrug> It may or may not be optimal, but it's clearly better than McDonalds, so you are at least making a step in the right direction.

Yeah for sure on the aspartame article. On the fiber thing, it binds to bile (which can contain plaque-building components like cholesterol) and goes through the digestive tract. That is the most direct way. There are indirect ways that it influences heart health, like slowing rate of released sugar. On the other side of the science, a Harvard study on 40,000 male professionals showed a high fiber diet decreased risk factor for coronary heart disease by 40%. As far as I know, it's not controversial that fiber affects heart health.