Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[7thGate]

This is actually making me kind of curious about how well Shaman/Ench/Ench/Cleric could handle Puppet show. There's some possible advantages for a Shaman in comp there:

--Shaman gives easy ability to solo Geb, so you can have one member prep multiple puppets for you without having to waste time acquiring a pet to start the cycle. (I think enchanter probably has more trouble just popping on and soloing Geb efficiently?)
--Shaman slow is effectively a 20% damage reduction, which actually matters if your plan is to spawn 3-4 puppets and tank them all concurrently
--Shaman can be pretty tanky with good gear and brings additional buffing. AC matters for this a lot but BIS shaman can probably tank 3 or 4 puppets concurrently with CH cleric backup.
--Summoning means you can't do it with just pets as easily
--Targets have so much HP shaman is efficient DPS with dots and Avatar on pets
EDIT: Malo and Malosini help reduce pet breaks and speed debuffing.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is actually making me kind of curious about how well Shaman/Ench/Ench/Cleric could handle Puppet show. There's some possible advantages for a Shaman in comp there:

--Shaman gives easy ability to solo Geb, so you can have one member prep multiple puppets for you without having to waste time acquiring a pet to start the cycle. (I think enchanter probably has more trouble just popping on and soloing Geb efficiently?)
--Shaman slow is effectively a 20% damage reduction, which actually matters if your plan is to spawn 3-4 puppets and tank them all concurrently
--Shaman can be pretty tanky with good gear and brings additional buffing. AC matters for this a lot but BIS shaman can probably tank 3 or 4 puppets concurrently with CH cleric backup.
--Summoning means you can't do it with just pets as easily
--Targets have so much HP shaman is efficient DPS with dots and Avatar on pets
EDIT: Malo and Malosini help reduce pet breaks and speed debuffing.

I don't think anyone would argue against that. The original argument going back to last year was that Shamans do better DPS than, say, a Charmed pet which is why they'd be better in the group. Which is just not correct over time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think anyone would argue against that. The original argument going back to last year was that Shamans do better DPS than, say, a Charmed pet which is why they'd be better in the group. Which is just not correct over time.

I challenge you to show me where I said that.

I appreciate you brought this up, because it simply shows how strawmen ruined this thread. That was the intent of course. When people got mad that they couldn't win with facts and logic, they decided to switch tactics and troll.

It amazes me that you have 100 replies in this thread and still know nothing about it since that is what you thought I was arguing.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's what I'm really curious about. Why group at all if you're going to be completely independent? What's the benefit?

More experience per hour. It's really that simple. XP groups are often easy and grindy, so there isn't always a need to do it together. Helping other people gain experience and talking in group chat is fun by itself.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If a fourth member doesn't expand what content you can do, 2 chanters are sufficient DPS (I understand and accept your argument that killing Fungi King in 90s vs 72s or whatever is pretty irrelevant), and loot splits better 3 ways, aren't you advocating that the fourth member is pretty irrelevant?

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or trying to score debate points, just trying to understand your position.

Realistically the fourth member would be irrelevant from my experience. Shaman/Enchanter/Monk can handle basically any camp that a trio would want to do, and I can't think of many (if any) camps that are doable with 4 people specifically instead of 3.

However, this is a question about a four man group. I don't think a group of four friends is going to drop down to a trio so they can split the loot better. Therefore, I am not going to discourage OP from abandoning one of their friends.

Instead, I am suggesting you take the base concept of a powerhouse trio like Shaman/Enchanter/Monk, and add a fourth member. With the additional restriction of caster/priest only, there are a few logical choices. Shaman/Enchanter/Necromancer is the closest analogy, and also gives you twitch + resurrection. Enchanters are often comfortable doing the pulling, so Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter works fine too.

Both of these combinations hit 200 DPS, which is probably the best breakpoint for a trio. Just about every named mob a trio can kill is dying in less than 2 minutes. Most trash mobs are dying in 20-40 seconds.

Mobs killable by 3-4 players are mostly slowable and do not out-DPS Torpor + Slow. CH is rarely needed in this scenario. This is especially true since this group has the restriction of no Warriors, so you don't have the option to CH a Warrior discing.

Cleric is a strong choice for the fourth member, since this trio doesn't really need more DPS. But you could fit in just about any class. The only reason why I say putting a Druid in this group isn't a good idea is because people are saying they want to replace the Shaman with the Druid. It simply doesn't make sense to do so. Shamans can handle more content than a Druid, so you are simply sacrificing a broader range of camps for port convenience. As long as the server populations remain healthy, you shouldn't be too worried about finding a port.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is actually making me kind of curious about how well Shaman/Ench/Ench/Cleric could handle Puppet show. There's some possible advantages for a Shaman in comp there:

--Shaman gives easy ability to solo Geb, so you can have one member prep multiple puppets for you without having to waste time acquiring a pet to start the cycle. (I think enchanter probably has more trouble just popping on and soloing Geb efficiently?)
--Shaman slow is effectively a 20% damage reduction, which actually matters if your plan is to spawn 3-4 puppets and tank them all concurrently
--Shaman can be pretty tanky with good gear and brings additional buffing. AC matters for this a lot but BIS shaman can probably tank 3 or 4 puppets concurrently with CH cleric backup.
--Summoning means you can't do it with just pets as easily
--Targets have so much HP shaman is efficient DPS with dots and Avatar on pets
EDIT: Malo and Malosini help reduce pet breaks and speed debuffing.

Interesting, do you just have one person kill Geb a few times over a few game days and then call in the rest of the group? Maybe I've been doing puppets wrong by doing one show per game day.

[7thGate]

I usually do puppet show normally too since it's safer and more straight forward, but have done 2 at once before when it's more time efficient. 2 enchanters would be overkill for the DPS need to clear a single spawn, and a cleric is overkill for healing, so I think you would get more from your time if you did multiples in a group of 4. I'm not entirely sure that a strong shaman can tank 3 at once with a cleric backing them, but I think they probably could and would be curious to see how it panned out with that team.

[Dritzle]

Kael, Chardok, mischief, sirens come to mind. SG could get pretty saucy with 4 pets. Speaking of PoM, from what I've seen, you're right about the puppet show 7thgate - shaman is key to a smooth puppet show

[cd288]

The comment that Shamans are second best solo class comes with a huge asterisk of basically "second best if you spend hours on end getting epic, grinding to buy torpor, and getting geared up in general"

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The comment that Shamans are second best solo class comes with a huge asterisk of basically "second best if you spend hours on end getting epic, grinding to buy torpor, and getting geared up in general"

With Puppet Strings, in addition to those things you mentioned, they surpass Enchanter.

Noone is denying they're a really good class. We're just denying they're needed in this hypothetical group.

And this fucking idiot can't concede to something even a mediocre player can figure out.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With Puppet Strings, in addition to those things you mentioned, they surpass Enchanter.

Noone is denying they're a really good class. We're just denying they're needed in this hypothetical group.

And this fucking idiot can't concede to something even a mediocre player can figure out.

Oh I don't disagree with you at all there. They are definitely not critical for this 4 person group and the benefit they bring (unless we're talking fully geared level 60 with Torpor) can be easily provided by other classes in almost all cases. Ench can haste and slow, a Cleric for heals.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh I don't disagree with you at all there. They are definitely not critical for this 4 person group and the benefit they bring (unless we're talking fully geared level 60 with Torpor) can be easily provided by other classes in almost all cases. Ench can haste and slow, a Cleric for heals.

But if an Enchanter is running out of mana due to hasting, slowing, ccing, and charming, then your group is losing efficiency anyway. You still have an efficiency problem if your Cleric is FM and your Enchanter is OOM.

A Shaman can share those duties, alleviating the mana loss on an Enchanter. The Cleric cannot share those duties as easily.