Best solo melee class?

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah AC seem to work the same for everyone, ranger seem to be suffering from lower defense, which makes their avoidance lower.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Indeed! SK Epic Proc is quite nice. Flamberge is still higher DPS than SK Epic when taking the procs into consideration, but the gap isn't huge. The healing portion of the Epic Proc more than makes up for the slightly lower DPS of SK Epic.



Yeah the lower defense is the issue with Rangers. Using my DPS calculator, a Ranger Mob takes roughly 8% more damage than a Warrior Mob due to the 32 less defense points.

Nice findings! I wonder, how does the lower defence impact ranger's avoidance specifically compared to monk and warrior?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice findings! I wonder, how does the lower defence impact ranger's avoidance specifically compared to monk and warrior?

All classes use the same formulas for avoidance. Avoidance is the chance for the mob to miss when melee attacking.

Avoidance uses your Defense Skill and AGI to determine if the mob misses. There aren't any other factors. Special abilities that are activated, like Voiddance, are the exception to this. As far as I know, there are no classes that get a special passive bonus to avoidance.

Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte only get triggered when you get hit, which is after the avoidance check. They just set the damage you take to 0.

This is why cloth casters get wrecked a lot faster in melee. Having 145 defense is rough. They are taking like 30% more damage than a Warrior according to my DPS calculator due to having 107 less defense skill points at level 60.

As a simple example, I'll show why a level 1 Orc Pawn has trouble hitting a level 60 Warrior.

The avoidance formula is simple:

1. Orc Pawn has 5 Offense Skill and 5 Weapon Skill. Add them together and you have a total value of 10.

2. The 60 Warrior has 252 Defense Skill and 255 AGI. AGI gets reduced to ~48 at 255 AGI. Add 252 and 48 together to get a total value of 300.

The formula rolls a 10 sided dice for the attacker (Orc Pawn), and a 300 sided dice for the defender (Warrior). If the Attacker's roll is higher than the Defender's, it is a hit. So the Warrior would need to roll a 9 or lower on a 300 sided dice to possibly get hit by an orc pawn.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's how I realized Monk defense was so OP. way more (unslowed) NPC misses on monk than on warrior of similar AC and character level. way more NPC hits landing on ranger with similar AC as monk

Yea, putting a figure on incoming/tanking dps is very helpful. It’s also tough to discern say a non-disc warrior from a monk without actual data.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Indeed! SK Epic Proc is quite nice. Flamberge is still higher DPS than SK Epic when taking the procs into consideration, but the gap isn't huge. The healing portion of the Epic Proc more than makes up for the slightly lower DPS of SK Epic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIb859Cg5ZM

I think this video does a good job of showing how good the SK epic is. Even though he failed killing the cliff golem, his gear at the time was very mediocre and probably would have won had he more had slightly better gear or even just a willsapper proc. He did have outside buffs but was only using eyepatch(probably wins with VoG).

And nice comparison to your ancient 2h wep! I would love to see something similar with a vulak axe sk vs epic.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All classes use the same formulas for avoidance. Avoidance is the chance for the mob to miss when melee attacking.

Avoidance uses your Defense Skill and AGI to determine if the mob misses. There aren't any other factors. Special abilities that are activated, like Voiddance, are the exception to this. As far as I know, there are no classes that get a special passive bonus to avoidance.

Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte only get triggered when you get hit, which is after the avoidance check. They just set the damage you take to 0.

How is dodge/parry/riposte calculated? I couldn't find from a quick search.

From the ranger thread:

Riposte+Parry+Dodge" skill
ranger: 185+220+170=575
sk: 200+205+155=560
warrior: 225+230+175=630

ranger riposte: 6.4%, parry:9.8%, dodge: 8.3%
sk riposte:7.5%, parry:11.7%, dodge:8.5%
warrior riposte:7.2%, parry:15.6%, dodge:10.8%

If it isn't a sample size issue, there is something dragging the ranger's dodge/parry effectiveness down because they have higher skill caps and still score lower than SK.

So if mobs hit rangers more and rangers dodge/parry/riposte less, that's a double whammy before AC is even factored in.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIb859Cg5ZM

I think this video does a good job of showing how good the SK epic is. Even though he failed killing the cliff golem, his gear at the time was very mediocre and probably would have won had he more had slightly better gear or even just a willsapper proc. He did have outside buffs but was only using eyepatch(probably wins with VoG).

And nice comparison to your ancient 2h wep! I would love to see something similar with a vulak axe sk vs epic.

Yeah that's a cool video. Getting a Cliff Golem down to 37% without a Willsapper is pretty nice! I agree with you they probably would have gotten the kill if they had an early Willsapper proc.

I do have a video where I am using my Epic as a 59 SK and Pint is using a level 60 SK with Vulaxe on the two FM giants. I'll see if I can find the logs, but here is the video:

https://youtu.be/CJwu-fFy0dk?si=viZiU66k-UoQTUzo

Here is the video description. I don't remember if this includes the procs or not, I'll need to dig up the logs.

Thank you Pint for joining me in testing the differences between a fully raid geared SK and a level 59 semi raid geared SK to compare the differences in damage taken.

Kongfuzi Level = 60
Kongfuzi HP = 4362
Kongfuzi AC = 1434
Kongfuzi MP = 2246

Bazgek Level = 59
Bazgek HP = 2864
Bazgek AC = 1080
Bazgek MP = 2018

Parse 1: Kongfuzi Damage Taken: 2405 over 133 seconds = 18 DPS
Parse 2: Kongfuzi Damage Taken: 2559 over 108 seconds = 23.7 DPS
Average = 20.85 DPS

Parse 1: Bazgek Damage Taken: 2,892 over 129 seconds = 22.4 DPS
Parse 2: Bazgek Damage Taken: 3,547 over 143 seconds = 24.8 DPS
Average = 23.6 DPS

Kongfuzi's damage was reduced by: ~12%

Due to the small number of parses, this is not a true average, just a guesstimate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is dodge/parry/riposte calculated? I couldn't find from a quick search.

From the ranger thread:



If it isn't a sample size issue, there is something dragging the ranger's dodge/parry effectiveness down because they have higher skill caps and still score lower than SK.

So if mobs hit rangers more and rangers dodge/parry/riposte less, that's a double whammy before AC is even factored in.

Dodge/Parry/Riposte/Block do not have any class bonuses/penalties as far as I know. They are calculated the same for all classes, so skill is all that matters.

These are the formulas I am using in my DPS calculator:

Block Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 25

Riposte Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 50

Parry Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

Dodge Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

I do have log data from my SK. For these logs he wasn't level 60. He would have been between 55 and 58 probably, so the level 60 chances would be a bit higher.

74550 hits
6414 dodges
7268 ripostes
9735 parries
97,867 total hits

6414 / 97,867 = 6.5% chance for dodge at ~155 dodge
7268 / 97,867 = 7.5% chance for riposte at ~200 Riposte
9735 / 97,867 = 10% chance for parry at ~205 Parry

The checks occur in sequential order. That is why you see this pattern where Parry occurs more than other skills, even though the chance of parry occuring is the same as dodge.

Block/Parry get checked first. This means that Dodge and Riposte get checked less, because a successful Parry will stop the dodge and riposte checks from happening at all.

[sammoHung]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

6414 / 97,867 = 6.5% chance for dodge at ~155 dodge
7268 / 97,867 = 7.5% chance for riposte at ~200 Riposte
9735 / 97,867 = 10% chance for parry at ~205 Parry

The checks occur in sequential order. That is why you see this pattern where Parry occurs more than other skills, even though the chance of parry occuring is the same as dodge.

Block/Parry get checked first. This means that Dodge and Riposte get checked less, because a successful Parry will stop the dodge and riposte checks from happening at all.

I'm gonna comb through my monk logs later and post results - I estimate Block being a bit more effective than Parry, because of higher skill cap

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm gonna comb through my monk logs later and post results - I estimate Block being a bit more effective than Parry, because of higher skill cap

Yes, block should be better than Parry because it has a smaller denominator:

Block Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 25

Parry Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

I got these formulas from EQEMU, so it is possible the denominators are different on P99. That may be why Parry has a 10% chance in my logs rather than the predicted 6.7% chance at 205 skill.

Even if the denominator is different on P99, I'd imagine Block having a smaller denominator than Parry would still carry over. Parry using a denominator of 30 instead of 45 would be a 10% chance to parry. So Block might be more like 16 instead of 25 if the ratios are the same.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, block should be better than Parry because it has a smaller denominator:

Block Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 25

Parry Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

I got these formulas from EQEMU, so it is possible the denominators are different on P99. That may be why Parry has a 10% chance in my logs rather than the predicted 6.7% chance at 205 skill.

Even if the denominator is different on P99, I'd imagine Block having a smaller denominator than Parry would still carry over. Parry using a denominator of 30 instead of 45 would be a 10% chance to parry. So Block might be more like 16 instead of 25 if the ratios are the same.

My friend used to be convinced that parry and stuff used different formulae pre PoP (or maybe pre-luclin? I didn't pay enough attention to her!) and should be much more effective for the same skill level in trilogy era than titanium. Never seen anything to substantiate this though!