Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For people who are interested in why FSI is the Min/Max option, please refer to these two posts:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=267 - This is hard data showing that FSI prevents stuns from occurring roughly 8.5% of the time when a kick/bash attempt is made.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=273 - This shows three practical scenarios where FSI would have saved hundreds of HP worth of damage in a short time period. Damage spikes where you take 10-20% of your total life in damage are more problamatic than saving maybe 30 seconds of recovery time after a fight via Iksar/Troll Regen when you have Torpor.

Here is Troxx, the strongest opposition to FSI, agreeing that passive regeneration from Fungi Tunic and Iksar/Troll Regeneration is not necessary on a Torpor Shaman:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

Further supporting this, Troxx gave his Fungi Tunic to an alt after getting Torpor:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For me? When I got torpor I gave my fungi to my alt and am using a thurg chain bp. Not that thurg is better but my monk wanted a fungi and I’m poor.

Here is Troxx agreeing that Vindi BP can be BiS. This also shows he has also seen the trend of Torpor Shamans not using Fungi Tunic anymore, which includes himself. The logic used to reach this conclusion is the same logic used to understand why FSI is better. A random chance to reduce a damage spike is better than a small yet consistent passive regeneration:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vindi BP has palpable potential benefits that are clearly defined. It gives a clearly defined boost to ac, hp, stats, and resists. Globally? A strong case can be made that 13 more regen (the fungi) is better than the stats resist. After torpor a case could be made that Vindi bp is globally better. Both stances have merit but most shamans I know simply sold their fungi to buy other things or passed it down to alts after they got torpor.

Thus far the opposition has agreed with most of my points, and has been unable to disprove my points.

Bcbrown incorrectly attempted to average FSI's damage reduction over multiple fights using the trigger percentage of FSI to make it appear that FSI does not reduce hundreds of damage in a single fight https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=281 . Comparing how much Iksar/Troll Regeneration provides in a single fight over 17 seconds to the average damage FSI reduces over multiple fights is an apples to oranges comparison. It is dishonest at worst, and bad math at best.

Bcbrown has also done some trolling in this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=238 - This is a common lie and strawman perpetuated by trolls who cannot rebut points.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=190 - This is Bcbrown supporting Troxx's fake medical diagnosis, which also supports Troxx's trolling.

When Troxx cannot rebut points, he resorts to silly gifs and fake autism medical diagnoses:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=182 - fake medical diagnosis.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=240 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=156 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=151 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=100 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...9&postcount=38 - Silly gif

[Toxigen]

touch grass and get ass bub

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

touch grass and get ass bub

Done and done! Now please learn to stop posting nonsense.

[Jimjam]

Some of you arguments don’t follow through.

Maybe FSI is the best for a torp shaman, but some of the points you make fail to argue that.

For example: Admitting regen isn’t necessary on a torp shaman is not the same as admitting fsi is best - neither are needed on a torp shaman! Using the same faulty logic you may as well argue the opposite - fsi isn’t needed by a torpor shaman so regen is best! Of course it is not possible for it to be both ways - they aren’t dichotomous so don’t really pair up as null/alternative hypothesis and therefore disproving one doesn’t support the other.

I think this is a detail you are overlooking - you seem to assume that posters who discuss your position of FSI are doing to support other racials as ‘best’ (and in some cases those posters may be doing so) but in many cases other posters don’t really have a favourite, they are just pointing out flaws in your arguments and you are pigeon holing them into being regen simps (I know you have done so to me in the past).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some of you arguments don’t follow through.

Maybe FSI is the best for a torp shaman, but some of the points you make fail to argue that.

I disagree, and simply claiming this is not a good enough argument by itself. If you want to show that my points are incorrect, you need to back it up with something other than your opinion that I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For example: Admitting regen isn’t necessary on a torp shaman is not the same as admitting fsi is best - neither are needed on a torp shaman!

Agreed. I never said "admitting regen isn't necessary means FSI is the best". I also agree neither are necessary. I am pointing out that Troxx agrees regen isn't necessary, which means Troxx cannot make the argument "Regen is necessary and FSI isn't".

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think this is a detail you are overlooking - you seem to assume that posters who discuss your position of FSI are doing to support other racials as ‘best’ (and in some cases those posters may be doing so) but in many cases other posters don’t really have a favourite, they are just pointing out flaws in your arguments and you are pigeon holing them into being regen simps (I know you have done so to me in the past).

People are indeed trying to make factual claims about which racial is better. I have no problem with people saying "I prefer Regen over FSI". That is a completely valid opinion to have. But once you try to make a factual claim that Regen is better than FSI, you need to back it up. FSI is objectively the best racial when looking at the facts thus far. If someone wants to prove otherwise, they need to provide evidence to counter my evidence.

I think the real issue is people are afraid of finalizing these kinds of discussions with facts and evidence, because that means there will be less to talk about on the forums. I think a lot of people prefer to shoot the shit with random information and don't really care if it is true. I like shooting the shit too, but the Class Discussions section is specifically designed to answer questions about classes in a factual manner. There are other areas on this forum to shoot the shit.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For example: Admitting regen isn’t necessary on a torp shaman is not the same as admitting fsi is best - neither are needed on a torp shaman!

Ayup! I’ve pointed this out to him many times but he’s still snipping out portions of my posts and putting words in my mouth

It’s ok.
DSM is just flailing at this point.
He does this in every DSM thread.

I don’t know who he thinks he is talking to with these summary posts.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don’t think FSI is about mitigation anyway - opposite to you I’m a little surprised the calculated average benefit is so high. My perception of FSI value is the benefit it provides at the extreme end of the normal - where that bash stun initiates a sequence of catastrophic failure. Obviously, by definition, that is more of a fringe occurrence, but for someone who is failure adverse (perhaps they like to kill rare, highly competed mobs - something OP wonders whether lacking JBB may make a difference) that may be a decisive benefit. For me, someone who likes to deal with the spice of things going a bit pete tong from time to time it’s not very enticing.

Oh, I agree absolutely. FSI shows its value when shit hits the fan. "Initiates a sequence of catastrophic failure" - this is exactly why I bring up Markov Chains. With that sort of analysis you can encode the state of the fight, including what spells have landed and how much damage you have taken. For example, the state at the start of the fight will be full hp; no debuffs. The two possible next states will be Malo landed; Malo failed to land. You give each state transition a probability, perhaps 85% and 15%. This lets you build out the full state space of a fight. Some parts of the chain can contain loops, like Casting Slow -> Slow failed to land -> Casting Slow.

The value of FSI is that it changes the probabilities of those state transitions, making it less likely you end up in the state of low health, slow failed to land. Markov Chain analysis was invented for precisely these types of problems, and the wikipedia article is at least somewhat intelligible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain#Transitions

I'm not willing to put in that much effort for this topic, and so went with a simplified analysis. But you correctly pointed out the "wiggle room" I was talking about; DSM I think intuitively understand the objection as well, but unfortunately he is unable to articulate it, which is why he's now talking about wizard nukes. I think the next area of improvement would be to replace the DPS number with a distribution, which lets us recognize that sometimes over a short interval a mob will do drastically more than average damage and sometimes drastically less. If, for example, we can say that 5% of the time a mob hits you for 400 damage, we can further refine the range out outcomes, and better quantify the probability that a fight turns so poor that one is forced to abandon the effort and gate out.

Unfortunately, as a filthy casual who's never leveled past 51, and never played a tank at all, I simply don't have the logs or intuitive understanding to build that probability distribution, and so I must rely on the DPS number that was provided to me. But if anyone else is interested in that analysis, I remain willing, even eager, to collaborate.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you work in higher education (undergrad, masters or doctoral level)? You carry yourself like a seasoned professor that is perhaps overly patient.

I greatly appreciate the kind words. My pedagogy has been developed through three activities - coaching novices in powerlifting, teaching the basics of tree identification on nature walks, and at work, where as a principal engineer, I spend a great deal of time mentoring junior engineers, some of whom have been quite dense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ayup! I’ve pointed this out to him many times but he’s still snipping out portions of my posts and putting words in my mouth

It’s ok.
DSM is just flailing at this point.
He does this in every DSM thread.

I don’t know who he thinks he is talking to with these summary posts.

I never said that FSI is better because regen isn't necessary. There is no place where you could have pointed this out to me to begin with lol. Why lie about something so trivial? It just makes you look bad.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM I think intuitively understand the objection as well, but unfortunately he is unable to articulate it, which is why he's now talking about wizard nukes.

As you can see, Bcbrown cannot win the argument with facts and logic. Therefore he must deflect to trying to score points because he disagrees with the format of my posts. He did this earlier by trying to suggest a mathematical proof format would somehow change the discussion in some way.

I prefer to speak in plain terms, because not everybody understands concepts like Markov Chains. Nor do people need to write out Markov chains to describe the benefits of FSI when looking at it from a high level.

You still havent addressed your obvious mistake in comparing averages of different timescales, and seem content to avoid the discussion all together.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As you can see, Bcbrown cannot win the argument with facts and logic.

Bcbrown is literally running circles around you cognitively - and is doing so calmly and coherently. It’s like an intellectual cage fight featuring Neil Degrasse Tyson vs a highschool dropout.

Keep on flailing.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

#WizardNukesTotallyRelevant