Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Generally unclassic adjustments seem to be made for cases where the change substantially decreases CSR load.

The 25 aoe limit, /list, there aren't a huge numbers of intentional departures from previously classic mechanics.

The only big non-csr departure from classic is where entire raids worth of lifetap earrings would be used to instagib dragons on spawn. That and titanium client features like /rewind and pet window.

And this is EXACTLY my point. The staff policy seems (and for the most part is) extremely reasonable: "we only fix exploits and things that use up our time". That completely makes sense for a 100% volunteer operation!

But again, you can't design by making one-off bug decisions in isolation. And whether he likes it or not, Nilbog is designing a game: there's just too much unknown about the exact details of classic mechanics, and it's just the nature of emulators that the people making them have to make countless judgement calls.

The problem is, Nilbog has made tons of such isolated decisions, which all made perfect sense and were perfectly logical in isolation ... but he wasn't paying attention to the bigger picture in the process. He hasn't noticed that all those decisions in isolation were design choices, and the game he's designing has made Enchanters:

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the strongest class in the game, deal with it.

to a degree that vastly exceeds what they were on live.

Yes the staff has extremely limited resources to make all of this happen. Yes nerfing exploits and allowing other frustrating (but non-exploit) mechanics makes sense. Yes making things unclassic as necessary (eg. lists, AoE mob limits) is a good thing when it makes the server overall more classic (eg. because it without them the GMs would have no time to assist us).

But that last one, and the motivation behind it, is critical. The staff didn't make a classic /list implementation: instead they took a step back, put on their game designer hat, and said "how can we make this situation the best and most classic it can be even if we have to break the literal classic mechanics?"

That question is exactly what needs to be asked with Enchanters, because by making completely logical and rational decision in isolation, the staff has made their server unclassic, in the same way Bards doing 50+ mobs and not letting anyone else XP in the Overthere was unclassic (even though countless logical and rational individual decisions, about Bards and what their classic mechanics were, had been what created that very situation).

Ultimately P99 is about classic Everquest. I truly think that anyone taking a step back, and doing their best to make an honest comparison of P99 to live, would see that Enchanters are not classic here. That should be fixed ... either with a 100% classic (as far as anyone can prove) resist increase, or even through an "unclassic but makes things more classic" change.

[Tecmos Deception]

Eh. That charmed pets couldn't be controlled thing isn't too convincing imo without corroboration. The way that post is worded makes me wonder if this guy is just mixing up how animations and charms function. Maybe he didn't even have keys made or try to use the pet control commands since the animation he was used to before he ever had charm didn't respond to them.

But yeah for sure there are issues with enchanter spells where they didn't work in earlier classic like they do on green. Unsure which of those if any staff have interest in changing. I thought most of them have been brought up, but maybe not through the proper bug-report channels. Stuff like runes and chanter AC buffs not stacking in the early days, tash being resistable, etc.


Lor - what exactly do you think has been done to make enchanters stronger than they were on live? The most recent evidence (and pretty solid evidence, imo, which it sounds like you didn't look at because it's legit testing done not random zam anecdotes or cherry-picked lines about charm being dangerous) about charm durations in this thread suggest p99 charm strength is pretty close excepting perhaps charming MUCH lower-level mobs (which isn't what makes charm OP anyways).

And in a general "OP chanters are bad" sense, as someone else mentioned, the main changes towards unclassic mechanics have been done to ease CSR problems (raid timers and rotations, bards monopolizing zones, etc), not to address overall game balance (charm numba 1, class exp penalties ahead of timeline changes, monks in late velious, etc).

[Dolalin]

Originally Posted by Wurl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I want to make sure everyone saw two EXTREMELY important posts on earlier pages.. these both align with my memories of classic, and thoroughly explain why charming was not used back then.

1. CHARMED PETS COULD NOT BE CONTROLLED
https://web.archive.org/web/20000510...ils&type=races


2. INVIS DID NOT BREAK CHARM

There seems to have been a bug around Enchanter charmed pets and /pet commands, sometimes they just wouldn't obey. But usually they did.

12/8/99

Charmed beings are SUPPOSED to act like other caster pets and follow the
same commands. I've noticed most of the time they work properly but
occasionally you'll charm something that aspires to be an Enchanter Pet
(ie.. they won't attack unless you're attacked first)

The majority of my charms worked fine but I would occasionally have this
charmed nasty following me around like a lost puppy dog. Of course once
the charm broke it was more than willing to attack something =)

Antheus

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....w/MUjBZ_tfTdEJ

[Dolalin]

There was another bug where charmed pets would sometimes attack your group members:

9/10/99

Furthermore, the charmed creatures will attack your party members
and they won't be able to hit back. You have to watch it like a hawk.
You will be able to stop the pet from attacking your buddies, but it
won't be like your normal animation pet in that you will have to keep
track of it.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....o/22VTCapUpg0J

Some of these things may go a way towards explaining why enchanters in early EQ didn't charm as much as they did later on.

[Bazia]

nerf encs im sick of seeing them everywhere, they also kinda make other pet classes look like a wet dog turd

stronger pet dps than a mage and 100x the utility

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

nerf encs im sick of seeing them everywhere

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[enjchanter]

Oh no they're gunna kill all of p99's ng bugs

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by enjchanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh no they're gunna kill all of p99's ng bugs

Lol.

I'm still curious to see just how many of these enchanters making up like 10-13% of the server are actually going to be the sort who can hold down stuff like freeti or am or whatever solo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cause it was one thing, imo, to hold these camps on blue during classic. But it'll be something else with a few times as many players looking for exp and an smr or geb or fbss drop. Die once, and you lose the camp for hours and hours. It is one thing to hold these camps at 60 on blue currently. But it'll be something else to do it at 50 in classic gear. Etc.

[enjchanter]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol.

I'm still curious to see just how many of these enchanters making up like 10-13% of the server are actually going to be the sort who can hold down stuff like freeti or am or whatever solo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cause it was one thing, imo, to hold these camps on blue during classic. But it'll be something else with a few times as many players looking for exp and an smr or geb or fbss drop. Die once, and you lose the camp for hours and hours. It is one thing to hold these camps at 60 on blue currently. But it'll be something else to do it at 50 in classic gear. Etc.

Yeah , that was honestly the main reason I wanted to play green, to see what would be possible without gear and level 60. But ultimately decided i dont have as much fun on EQ as i used to after a couple levels sadly.

[Mushman]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Generally unclassic adjustments seem to be made for cases where the change substantially decreases CSR load.

The 25 aoe limit, /list, there aren't a huge numbers of intentional departures from previously classic mechanics.

The only big non-csr departure from classic is where entire raids worth of lifetap earrings would be used to instagib dragons on spawn. That and titanium client features like /rewind and pet window.

Thanks for the info!

So if I understand correctly, the staff made the change to lifetap clickies, knowingly going against classic data for the sake of improving the game?

Just wanted to know if the whole fortress argument of "It is proven classic so it stays" even holds water. It really doesn't though if they've used their judgement in the past.