Upcoming change to class epics

[ergo]

No I just dont like bad arguments. You were inferring that his opinion was irrelevant based on how long the current account has existed.

That is both shitty logic and has no baring on anything.

[ergo]

Originally Posted by Kutsumo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey guys, just want to point out a minor detail that you seem to be missing. Where did Nilbog say that this change is about red or rogue epics? He explained himself very clearly. At least try to dispute his actual reasoning rather than stringing up your favorite straw man.

You would be right except:

There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain.

This specifically states they have no idea and are making shit up, years into the game after allowing it.

Please explain, with real reasoning, how a lv 1-45 cleric holding an epic harms anyone at all? It doesn't harm anyone. Shaman epic? Same thing cant click it. Neither are worth a crap until they are be clicked, save for stats.

Now which epic is both easily obtained and usable 100%? Rogue. It isn't hard to figure out. Which server would have the most impact? Red. Cause a rogue backstabbing for 140+ at under lv 20 could cause serious problems.

On blue? Worst case they solo, best case they group and their groups LOVE an epic rogue dpsing for them.

So, you are right, they didn't SAY it was to counter the pvp issue, but that is what it does, in action. Beyond the look of epics on sub 46 chars, it does nothing to harm the game.


Also the cleric epic does not require planar travel - at all - and thus this other 'reason' he stated is both irrelevant and moot.

Next bad argument please.

[Kutsumo]

Originally Posted by ergo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You would be right except:



This specifically states they have no idea and are making shit up, years into the game after allowing it.

Please explain, with real reasoning, how a lv 1-45 cleric holding an epic harms anyone at all? It doesn't harm anyone. Shaman epic? Same thing cant click it. Neither are worth a crap until they are be clicked, save for stats.

Now which epic is both easily obtained and usable 100%? Rogue. It isn't hard to figure out. Which server would have the most impact? Red. Cause a rogue backstabbing for 140+ at under lv 20 could cause serious problems.

On blue? Worst case they solo, best case they group and their groups LOVE an epic rogue dpsing for them.

So, you are right, they didn't SAY it was to counter the pvp issue, but that is what it does, in action. Beyond the look of epics on sub 46 chars, it does nothing to harm the game.

Of course this change effects the rogue epic more than other epics - it's the easiest to MQ at a low level and is very impactful at a low level. However, to infer that the rogue epic was their motivation for this change is pointless speculation since it has nothing to do with the stated reasoning.

I do understand why you're focusing on this, and especially on the least impactful pre 50 epic (clr). It makes for an argument that you feel you can win. Do you understand what a straw man argument is? If not, look at what you're doing and compare it to the definition.

Originally Posted by ergo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also the cleric epic does not require planar travel - at all - and thus this other 'reason' he stated is both irrelevant and moot.

Next bad argument please.

He didn't say that all epics require planar travel and therefore you should be at planar level. Please try reading this again.

Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals.

[ergo]

Exactly, its all their opinion and for some reason that opinion has not been a priority until velious was released. There is no need to change it. Why ruin the fun?

Either they need to 100% do away with MQing, and add item level requirements to ALL items of significant power, or they need leave epics alone and address the only real problem to game play that anyone says is an issue - rogues on red.

This is not a problem on blue.

[Seltius]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can anyone give me a reason, other than leveling faster, why not having an epic at low levels is game breaking? Help me understand this. Really.

I can see the red ganking noobs. But what else is there that makes having an epic at low levels important?

Your making this a Dev vs Red thing. I spent a lot of time got a lot of help from friends and then spent a lot of plat getting my ranger his Swiftwind and Earthcaller along with a full set of Tolans just because it looked amazing. Several times I have had a GM run through and toss an illusion(High Elf or Troll to name 2 I remember off hand) on him in EC just to make him look cool as a race that cannot be ranger. It was all in fun I don't even play him that often anymore. He is level 30 and will probably stay that way. This was on blue99 btw. It was the chance to accomplish something so I guess with these changes I have no reason to ever log him in again. I didn't do it to grief anyone or to exploit or anything else it was something I never got on live until it was so trivial I was able to solo most of it.(ranger epics) It was for the fun and fashionquest.

This was what the game was about it wasn't a game changer or exploit it was because that was the fun of being able to customize your character and maybe do something different. We all play or played this game for our own reasons to have fun in our own way. Yes I agree some live to grief others or to exploit or to make money but most of us in our own ways play this game just to have fun. If we didn't need the social interaction or the customizable ability of our toons we could go play a console game. I am betting that is what attracted you guys to the idea of doing an emulated version of EQ if not you would have been doing WoW or some console game instead. It was the parts of the game you enjoyed that stuck with you.

I am not asking you not to implement this change. I am just asking that you not make it so some of us who did epics for innocent reasons to have fun without hurting others aren't hurt by the change. This isn't a classic change so it isn't necessary to take a sledge hammer to it to fix. I can understand making it not equippable until 46 if that is what you feel is best for the server and community but please do not unequip or make them automatically unequip when this change goes through. The griefers on Red or other places will die sooner or later and then they just cant reequip their epic until 46. Imo that's a win win for everyone.

There are so many other positive changes that can be made currently to help the server and community please you guys do good work keep it up.

Oh and it might be time to do a server restart. Not wipe but just restart them there are some pretty serious ghosting and latency issues starting to pop up. Seem to remember someone posting may have been years ago that if the server wasn't restarted at like day 44 or 74 or something it really started to act funny.


Last thing sorry if you addressed what I said earlier I only got to the page your comment was posted on before I felt I should quote it.

Thanks again for all you guys do for us.

[Kutsumo]

Originally Posted by ergo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly, its all their opinion and for some reason that opinion has not been a priority until velious was released. There is no need to change it. Why ruin the fun?

There is a list of reasons why they chose to make this change, and not all of them are based on opinion. In fact, only one of the four points could be construed as the opinion of P99 staff. It's rather convenient to focus on only that one, isn't it?

Borrowing this from another poster who already made this point earlier in the thread...

[1]There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain.
[2]Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones.
[3] It has been noted by the original developers that epic items were intended only for those of higher levels.
[4]Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals.
[Conclusion] Therefore, we are adding a level requirement of 46 to equip all epic items.

Originally Posted by ergo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Either they need to 100% do away with MQing, and add item level requirements to ALL items of significant power, or they need leave epics alone and address the only real problem to game play that anyone says is an issue - rogues on red.

This is not a problem on blue.

That whole "you need to do it all or nothing" (in regard to nerfing all MQs and all powerful items) is another fallacious argument on your part. No, they don't need to do all or nothing - they can do specifically what was stated for the reasons stated. Again, you're pinning this on a "rogues on red" issue when the staff hasn't stated that as a reason. You can assume and project and guess all you want, but it's all just speculation, and the actual reasons are hard to dispute - evidenced by your avoiding those points and the straw man raids.

[ergo]

If they want to be fair... they should nerf all or nothing. Because I am sure the creators of EQ never intended a sub level 50 to be wearing a fungi tunic.

Also an opinion is not fallacious. It is my opinion they should nerf it all or nothing. You can say my reasoning is fallacious, but holding an opinion is not.

[4]Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals.

Opinion.

Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones.

fact but they are not sure which are and which arent. Nerfing MQing without proper knowledge is not something that should be done lightly when they cant even fix shrink in dungeons when myself and others have shown direct evidence it should.

There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain.

Fact, they dont know, they arent sure, so after years of allowing the MQ and equipping of rogue, cleric, sham and monk epics, suddenly its going away.


Their conclusion is based on inconsistent research by their own standards, so why make a decision contrary to how the server has been working (see popular) and fun just because of their ignorance? Either they are withholding information or their true reasons, or their reasons are not based on 'classic' or how things were, its something else.


Can someone give me any real reason to do this that has nothing to do with pvp?

[Ele]

Originally Posted by ergo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can someone give me any real reason to do this that has nothing to do with pvp?

Because it is their server and they want to do it.

[Itap]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because it is their server and they want to do it.

I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand. This is Rogeans/Nilbogs project, and when it comes down to it, they can do whatever they want. Rogean can pull the plug tomorrow and he doesn't have to give a reason why. Just stop complaining and enjoy the ride.

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Itap [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand. This is Rogeans/Nilbogs project, and when it comes down to it, they can do whatever they want. Rogean can pull the plug tomorrow and he doesn't have to give a reason why. Just stop complaining and enjoy the ride.

lol ok pal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He advertised it to us as Project 1999, are you insinuating Rogean and nillbog are troll bullshitters then?

That logic looks real flawed.