If you believe in god, you're an idiot...

[Dunes]

So you know where Im coming from, I probably fall around a #5 on that chart.

Premise: Religion is good.

Let me explain my take on it, despite the fact that I lean agnostic.

Religion came about for several reasons, to name a few at a high level:
-1- As a means of explaining the (then currently) unexplainable
-2- As a means of providing hope for the downtrodden
-3- As an additional societal norm for group cohesion
-4- As a means of providing justification for ones actions and as a means of control (dont take a offence at this one yet; see below)


So a bit more detail before I explain my premise.

-1- In an era with even basic mathematics did not exist, you can rest assured that there was a lot that was unexplainable. As societies grew, so did our understanding of the world, and more probable explanations came to be. This might in part explain the theological distillation from gods of everything (thunder, war, the hearth, the etc etc) down to "God", as subject matter for each of those other Gods was no longer unexplainable. Every new scientific/technical discovery of worldly significance deals another blow to religion.

-2- In an era when even basic medical care did not exist or was out of reach of most, religion provided some sense of hope. "Yes, my existence is miserable right now, but someday I will be rewarded for my faith with everything my that my I (my culture) hold dear." Also, "Yes, you may be able to knock down my shanty and steal my possessions, but someday, I will be rewarded for my faith and you will get what is coming to you." As medical care has improved and become more readily available, again, religion is replaced in the hearts of men (and women) by more worldly concerns.

-3- In an era when people were still being eaten by lions and threatened by invading forces, group cohesion and identity were critical. Group cohesion formed cultures, which in turn formed towns, cities, and nations of similarly minded people. Nations did tend to use religion (-4-) as a means of control, but this never would have worked if the people hadnt already adopted their form of religion as a societal norm. Ever has religion played a part in the rise and fall of empires. I will say this, though - religion is becoming less and less a motivator for war than economics. Economics, however, have always played a part in war.

-4- Persona A, "Why did you do that?" Person B, "Because its the right thing to do." This is a broad one, because it encompasses not only our moral "duties" but also our more proactive decision making processes (going to Church, volunteering at a food bank, etc). Unfortunately, this is also the one that gets us in trouble because it is so action-oriented. Person A, "Why are you going to blow yourself up in a highly populated location?" Person B, "because (someone told me that) its the right thing to do." Again, some conflict still ensues due to religion, but it is becoming increasingly less of a motivator despite media attention on the nut job suicide bombers.

So yes, there are pro's and cons to religion, and yes, a post in a forum cant even scratch the tip of the subject. Nevertheless, my premise that religion is good stands true in my mind. What other means is there of making sure that a person does the right thing unless its fear of divine retribution? Also, dont even try to make the argument of "well, what is 'the right thing'?" I think its safe to say that the right thing means not killing the kid that stole your lunch money just because you wont get caught (and other such examples). This simple rule of not killing unecessarily, not stealing, helping others when in need, and basically most of the 10 Commandments, is what keeps our ever growing, hedonistic, and entitled populations from destroying each other completely. Sure, thats a "sky is falling" scenario, but I personally would hate to see a world where religion does not, and never did exist. Sure

[Beauregard]

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you know where Im coming from, I probably fall around a #5 on that chart.

Premise: Religion is good.

Let me explain my take on it, despite the fact that I lean agnostic.

Religion came about for several reasons, to name a few at a high level:
-1- As a means of explaining the (then currently) unexplainable
-2- As a means of providing hope for the downtrodden
-3- As an additional societal norm for group cohesion
-4- As a means of providing justification for ones actions and as a means of control (dont take a offence at this one yet; see below)


So a bit more detail before I explain my premise.

-1- In an era with even basic mathematics did not exist, you can rest assured that there was a lot that was unexplainable. As societies grew, so did our understanding of the world, and more probable explanations came to be. This might in part explain the theological distillation from gods of everything (thunder, war, the hearth, the etc etc) down to "God", as subject matter for each of those other Gods was no longer unexplainable. Every new scientific/technical discovery of worldly significance deals another blow to religion.

-2- In an era when even basic medical care did not exist or was out of reach of most, religion provided some sense of hope. "Yes, my existence is miserable right now, but someday I will be rewarded for my faith with everything my that my I (my culture) hold dear." Also, "Yes, you may be able to knock down my shanty and steal my possessions, but someday, I will be rewarded for my faith and you will get what is coming to you." As medical care has improved and become more readily available, again, religion is replaced in the hearts of men (and women) by more worldly concerns.

-3- In an era when people were still being eaten by lions and threatened by invading forces, group cohesion and identity were critical. Group cohesion formed cultures, which in turn formed towns, cities, and nations of similarly minded people. Nations did tend to use religion (-4-) as a means of control, but this never would have worked if the people hadnt already adopted their form of religion as a societal norm. Ever has religion played a part in the rise and fall of empires. I will say this, though - religion is becoming less and less a motivator for war than economics. Economics, however, have always played a part in war.

-4- Persona A, "Why did you do that?" Person B, "Because its the right thing to do." This is a broad one, because it encompasses not only our moral "duties" but also our more proactive decision making processes (going to Church, volunteering at a food bank, etc). Unfortunately, this is also the one that gets us in trouble because it is so action-oriented. Person A, "Why are you going to blow yourself up in a highly populated location?" Person B, "because (someone told me that) its the right thing to do." Again, some conflict still ensues due to religion, but it is becoming increasingly less of a motivator despite media attention on the nut job suicide bombers.

So yes, there are pro's and cons to religion, and yes, a post in a forum cant even scratch the tip of the subject. Nevertheless, my premise that religion is good stands true in my mind. What other means is there of making sure that a person does the right thing unless its fear of divine retribution? Also, dont even try to make the argument of "well, what is 'the right thing'?" I think its safe to say that the right thing means not killing the kid that stole your lunch money just because you wont get caught (and other such examples). This simple rule of not killing unecessarily, not stealing, helping others when in need, and basically most of the 10 Commandments, is what keeps our ever growing, hedonistic, and entitled populations from destroying each other completely. Sure, thats a "sky is falling" scenario, but I personally would hate to see a world where religion does not, and never did exist. Sure

Agreed completely except the premise that religion is good. I would argue it used to be good, and has outlived its purpose. We have science now.

Religion was our first attempt at damn near everything. Philosophy, Medicine, Astronomy, Morality, etc. We have transcended religion in every aspect.

Example of inferior religious morality - god has a clear stance on homosexuality, yet we now know they are born that way and we shouldn't discriminate against them because they aren't sinning. So we have 2 camps in America that hold the two different opinions, where it shouldn't even be an issue.

[corradojeff]

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What other means is there of making sure that a person does the right thing unless its fear of divine retribution?

Lot of people are stating things similar to the above in this thread. Since you are a self proclaimed "5" on the scale I will ask you: When you see a brick of money sitting on a counter at a bank (I don’t know just roll with it) so you think to yourself "I shouldn't steal that or god will punish me"?

When my morals are tested the first thing I usually think is "I don't want to go to fucking jail". The argument has been made that the laws have been formed with a deep base in religion, and that very well may be, but the fact remains that if you’re caught the law with fuck you in the ass with the largest dildo it can find and that is what is scary.

[RocketMoose]

Originally Posted by Asher [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing we can all say for sure is that we aren't certain.

We can have theories and having a theory isn't being stupid. In my opinion either is possible. I am certain in a few hundred years we will be able to create advanced life ourselves. I believe we have already created very very simple forms of life haven't we? Who is to say that a more ancient being hasn't already done this?

I am an agnostic and will remain that way.

I considered myself a christian until I studied history and found out how religion was used in the early days to control people. I do not put any faith in anything these people have said or done.

I am ok with saying that I do not know and anyone who says they do know is lying.

Asher

Being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. That's what I think people have the hardest time separating.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by RocketMoose [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. That's what I think people have the hardest time separating.

That was just a little tid bit of information about myself so people would have an idea of where I was coming from. I was not intending that to be for all religions.

[corradojeff]

I consider myself Agnostic. I grew up Catholic and converted (forced to convert) to Christianity when my parents split. When I got older I studied theology and the more I read the more I realized how Agnostic I actually was.

I think an important point is being missed.

There is no "fact" that god exists and there is no "fact" that he doesn’t exist but there is the undeniable truth that the idea of a god does affect the people who believe. Sometimes that effect is negative and other times its positive but it is there.

No, I don’t believe there is a god in a corporeal sense but I do believe that the idea of a god exists in people and that it has a very real and sometimes tangible effect on that person and the people around them.

P.S. I am not talking about "God" or "The God" I am referring to a god. Any sort of god that anyone believes in.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by corradojeff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no "fact" that god exists and there is no "fact" that he doesn’t exist but there is the undeniable truth that the idea of a god does affect the people who believe. Sometimes that effect is negative and other times its positive but it is there.

While I agree it does serve a good purpose, I think it is sad that we need this crutch to be good.

I consider myself a kind and good person even though I have no religious affiliation. I don't like how I am considered evil because I am agnostic by some people who are religious.

Like Beauregard says, I would like to see religion done away with. I am sure over time it will happen. More and more people are turning to Atheism and Agnosticism. Democracies always move left. The US is just moving a bit slower than other western nations.

People shouldn't need to believe in a God to be good. Of all our human qualities, I think this depresses me most of all.

Asher

[corradojeff]

Originally Posted by Asher [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While I agree it does serve a good purpose, I think it is sad that we need this crutch to be good.

I consider myself a kind and good person even though I have no religious affiliation. I don't like how I am considered evil because I am agnostic by some people who are religious.

Like Beauregard says, I would like to see religion done away with. I am sure over time it will happen. More and more people are turning to Atheism and Agnosticism. Democracies always move left. The US is just moving a bit slower than other western nations.

People shouldn't need to believe in a God to be good. Of all our human qualities, I think this depresses me most of all.

Asher

I fully agree and I should have made it clear in my post. I was speaking about the people who have a belief in a god not the people who don't. The only point the people who don't believe should have taken away is that because the idea exists, makes it real in the sense that it nudges people in certain directions.

I don't believe our lack of religion should make us "black sheep". It is hypocritical of religious people to judge our non religion, but most do.

[quellren]

Ok, Harrison. Let's step away from the mudslinging and name calling. You seem to champion the believer side of the discussion here so,
I have an honest, straightforward question to ask, one I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

According to Christian doctrine (with much paraphrasing) 2000-odd years ago, God looked upon the world and saw that the race of man needed to pull their collective heads out of their asses and get right. So he sends a prophet to spread the word. It begins with the Virgin birth of Jesus. Jesus, according to the Bible, performs many miraculous, unexplainable feats and multitudes of people see the light, and follow these teachings. In a covanent with God, Jesus dies, and thus took one for the 'team' absolving us of all the bad things people did to each other.

So here's my question: It's pretty apparent to me that we've strayed back onto that road we were on Pre-Jesus. If God loves me, unconditionally, and I can't be to blame for being the imperfect heathen I am,
Why doesn't God do it again? Send another Jesus. Not the prophesized Jesus to collect the flock of believers, Send him to re-prove that God exists and loves us all. Feed the crowd at the superbowl with just the bread in his pocket, Walk into a cancer ward and eradicate the disease. Show me God is still interested. A two century old book recounting the stuff that went down (sometimes 3rd hand, and decades after it happened) written by MEN isn't selling the promise anymore.


What does your unshakable faith say about the fact that a sizeable portion of the Bible relates direct accounts of interaction with 'The Almighty' and his angels. Everything from Abraham being told by God himself to kill Issac, to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments written DIRECTLY by God's finger. Theres a butt-load of divine interaction right up until Jesus and his death. And then it stops. Cold Turkey.


Why? Why no more?
The standard answer I get is 'Faith'. The believers' catch-all. You gotta just believe that it happened. Why do I just have to believe? This is met with: The believers go to Heaven.
Heaven isn't actual real estate. There isn't a Fire Code that limits occupancy. Why can't everyone go?
If God really loves me, unconditionally, more than I can imagine, why doesn't he:
A) forgive my ignorance and take me anyway?
or better yet
B) PROVE HE EXISTS and let me fall to my knees in abject humble apology for doubting?

Give me something other than that sunday-school 'faith' rhetoric that I've heard for 20 years.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by quellren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, Harrison. Let's step away from the mudslinging and name calling. You seem to champion the believer side of the discussion here so,
I have an honest, straightforward question to ask, one I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

According to Christian doctrine (with much paraphrasing) 2000-odd years ago, God looked upon the world and saw that the race of man needed to pull their collective heads out of their asses and get right. So he sends a prophet to spread the word. It begins with the Virgin birth of Jesus. Jesus, according to the Bible, performs many miraculous, unexplainable feats and multitudes of people see the light, and follow these teachings. In a covanent with God, Jesus dies, and thus took one for the 'team' absolving us of all the bad things people did to each other.

So here's my question: It's pretty apparent to me that we've strayed back onto that road we were on Pre-Jesus. If God loves me, unconditionally, and I can't be to blame for being the imperfect heathen I am,
Why doesn't God do it again? Send another Jesus. Not the prophesized Jesus to collect the flock of believers, Send him to re-prove that God exists and loves us all. Feed the crowd at the superbowl with just the bread in his pocket, Walk into a cancer ward and eradicate the disease. Show me God is still interested. A two century old book recounting the stuff that went down (sometimes 3rd hand, and decades after it happened) written by MEN isn't selling the promise anymore.


What does your unshakable faith say about the fact that a sizeable portion of the Bible relates direct accounts of interaction with 'The Almighty' and his angels. Everything from Abraham being told by God himself to kill Issac, to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments written DIRECTLY by God's finger. Theres a butt-load of divine interaction right up until Jesus and his death. And then it stops. Cold Turkey.


Why? Why no more?
The standard answer I get is 'Faith'. The believers' catch-all. You gotta just believe that it happened. Why do I just have to believe? This is met with: The believers go to Heaven.
Heaven isn't actual real estate. There isn't a Fire Code that limits occupancy. Why can't everyone go?
If God really loves me, unconditionally, more than I can imagine, why doesn't he:
A) forgive my ignorance and take me anyway?
or better yet
B) PROVE HE EXISTS and let me fall to my knees in abject humble apology for doubting?

Give me something other than that sunday-school 'faith' rhetoric that I've heard for 20 years.

I am not Christian in any way, shape, or form. I can't answer these questions for you. I don't believe any of that, and primarily for the same reasons most atheists don't.

I don't put faith into the words of man. My experiences lead me to believe that man is full of shit and out for himself more often than not. I won't put stock into words written by man now, then, or in the future, at face value concerning metaphysics.

The massive hump you guys can't seem to get over is that Christianity isn't the only belief out there. You discount all ideas concerning a God simply because you think the Bible is bullshit. (A book written by men, mind you.)