Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[ncapatina]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it have to be that anyone who wants to experience VP must put in 40 hours? Shouldn't a hard-working, dedicated guild that puts in 20 hours a week be able to access VP? It should take them twice as long to get geared up for VP, and once they get there they'll only get to access it half as much as a guild that spends 40 hours ... but they should still be able to access it right?

That's not the same thing with less effort, it's half the thing with half the effort.

EQ doesn't work that way. That's how WoW is setup...things are instanced, you get badges/tokens/whatever and you accumulate enough you can trade them in for a piece of loot.

In EQ the time commitment is getting the contested content in the first place. Not to mention in the case of VP you're competing just to gain access to the zone as it requires drops from another contested raid target.

In order for Guild A to progress, Guild B cannot. There is no "do half the work and get half the reward" option. That's just the game folks, take it or leave it...

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ncapatina [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's just the game folks, take it or leave it...

Oooo, I want to try making something true just by stating it too:

"Loramin has a million plat in his bank account."

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Now, I don't need to run home and logon to know that my account doesn't have a million plat; similarly, just because you make a pronouncement like that doesn't make it any more true.

Everyone agrees P99's raid scene isn't, and can never be exactly like it was on live. So this whole discussion can't just be "it was X on live, so it should be X on P99". No one can just say "this is the way it has to be", because the way it should be is the way it was on live, and that's impossible. Instead, by definition, it has to be "this is the way we want it to be on P99".

So it's ok to say "I have an opinion, and that opinion is that everyone should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP." But other people have different opinions, and theirs are no better and no worse than your opinion.

At the end of the day it all comes down to what we want P99 to be. So given that, don't we all want a guild that spends twice as much effort to get twice as much reward ... not infinitely more reward?

P.S. Oh, and by "we" I in some sense mean "the p99 developers" ... but since it does seem that they can be influenced by the rest of us, in a way "we" really does mean "us".

[ncapatina]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everyone agrees P99's raid scene isn't, and can never be exactly like it was on live. So this whole discussion can't just be "it was X on live, so it should be X on P99".

Two live servers weren't even the same. Of course P99 is going to have its own wrinkles. But p99 is actually pretty close to how the majority of live servers raided. The biggest difference is we know the end of the story. That makes some items and the MOBs that drop them more valuable/contested. But that re-prioritization of content doesn't effect the methodology used here or any live server.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So it's ok to say "I have an opinion, and that opinion is that everyone should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP." But other people have different opinions, and theirs are no better and no worse than your opinion.

I agree, saying "I think you should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP" is an opinion. But that's not what I'm saying. What I said was that is what has already been set as the requirement to see VP here. Those are the facts bro, no opinion in that statement. If a cheeseburger costs $2 saying I think that a fair price is $1 and that is what I'll pay doesn't get me a cheeseburger.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At the end of the day it all comes down to what we want P99 to be. So given that, don't we all want a guild that spends twice as much effort to get twice as much reward ... not infinitely more reward?

Here is the problem with that logic. What "we" want isn't all the same. Do you think TMO wants things to change? I really doubt it. Why would they? I'm not trying to speak for them but I would imagine they feel they've earned their advantage and it would be unfair to take it away from them.

Contested content does this. One guild/group killing something means another guild/group can't kill it. If I were the leadership in TMO I'd want to keep a stranglehold on the gateway to higher level content to limit contention too. That's just the way EQ works man, sorry.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. Oh, and by "we" I in some sense mean "the p99 developers" ... but since it does seem that they can be influenced by the rest of us, in a way "we" really does mean "us".

If the development team wanted to step in and force change they could. It would be somewhat contrary to what the stated goals of this server are but it is certainly their prerogative.

All the above (and stuff in previous posts) being said, I don't think anyone wants the server to be a bunch of casuals and TMO. What fun would that be? But if people aren't going to step up and compete with them on their level that's what will end up happening.

[loramin]

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response; sometimes these dialogues become ... less than thoughtful.

Originally Posted by ncapatina [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is the problem with that logic. What "we" want isn't all the same. Do you think TMO wants things to change? I really doubt it. Why would they?

I'd argue "because they are human beings". People may have selfish desires, but they also have a sense of justice. It's inherently human to think that "twice the effort deserves twice the reward", and even the people who are currently benefiting from an unfair system can appreciate the unfairness of it.

I think TMO wants fairness too, and their concerns about "we had to work for this and we don't want others to get stuff without having to work for it" is about fairness also. I think both TMO and the TMO haters are concerned about an unfair system, and ultimately that's what unites us all (or maybe just most; there's a few rotten apples on both sides).

Now, I realize that perfect fairness is a pipe dream, but EQ in general gets pretty close. It's true that someone could camp a mob for 4 hours and get loot while someone who camped it for 8 hours got nothing ... but in general the guy camping for 8 hours is going to get 2x the loot of the 4 hour guy. Same thing for exp grinding: in general if you grind for 8 hours you'll get twice as much exp as if you only grinded (ground?) for 4 hours.

So if EQ is generally fair all the way until the very end, shouldn't we try and get at least close to fair at the end? No freebies for people who don't earn them, and no lockouts for anyone not in the cool kids club, just our best shot at making a system that proportionally rewards everyone ... isn't that something reasonable we can all support?

[JayN]

TMO just let BDA go first on CT granted they didnt get him past 50%... all this TMO hate is fox new rhetoric from a select few of haters that burned their bridges long ago in the name of greed.

Now that they can no longer get their way they cry loud and hard.

eat dicks

TMO by no means has always been top dog on this server, they had to bite and claw their way to the top

[Tasslehofp99]

Manguadi isn't in FE anymore, and he controlled Xeli.

Duct tape? lol atleast we don't use 3rd party auto-fire programs like certain members of TMO.

Eccezan may not have used MQ, but one of his accounts was flagged and never banned, which is far from fair to the other folks who's accounts WERE banned for being flagged (regardless of whether they used or not)


I only bring these things up to further emphasize my point that the rules on this server are not enforced properly, if at all. There are TONS of people cheating and getting away with it, on a regular basis. People who are caught cheating need to be banned, regardless of their affiliation or standing on the server. If you don't enforce rules fairly and properly, you are just helping to further lessen the integrity of the server!

Edit: The main issue on p99 is enforcement of the rules, there are many folks who take advantage of this to benefit themselves or their guild. There is plenty of proof of this documented by fraps as well as screenshots and logs, yet rarely anything is done to punish those responsible. Just this week a two-boxer was caught and banned, yet Jeremy was caught exploiting his IP exemption and gets nothing but a slap on the wrist? Now you've also got claims coming from the red server that 2boxing is pretty much unenforced there. This is what I'm referring to: if you don't enforce the rules, things get out of hand and they have.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Manguadi isn't in FE anymore, and he controlled Xeli.

Duct tape? lol atleast we don't use 3rd party auto-fire programs like certain members of TMO.

Eccezan may not have used MQ, but one of his accounts was flagged and never banned, which is far from fair to the other folks who's accounts WERE banned for being flagged (regardless of whether they used or not)


I only bring these things up to further emphasize my point that the rules on this server are not enforced properly, if at all. There are TONS of people cheating and getting away with it, on a regular basis. People who are caught cheating need to be banned, regardless of their affiliation or standing on the server. If you don't enforce rules fairly and properly, you are just helping to further lessen the integrity of the server!

Edit: The main issue on p99 is enforcement of the rules, there are many folks who take advantage of this to benefit themselves or their guild. There is plenty of proof of this documented by fraps as well as screenshots and logs, yet rarely anything is done to punish those responsible. Just this week a two-boxer was caught and banned, yet Jeremy was caught exploiting his IP exemption and gets nothing but a slap on the wrist? Now you've also got claims coming from the red server that 2boxing is pretty much unenforced there. This is what I'm referring to: if you don't enforce the rules, things get out of hand and they have.

If you're talking about this, I flagged that account along with flagging my own account and apparently decided to flag those accounts with my 3 different IPs.

Ephi cleared Eccezan and then pushed my problem up to Rogean, who as far as I know never even looked at it lol.

[Tasslehofp99]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're talking about this, I flagged that account along with flagging my own account and apparently decided to flag those accounts with my 3 different IPs.

Ephi cleared Eccezan and then pushed my problem up to Rogean, who as far as I know never even looked at it lol.

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In other words, like I said, rules need to be enforced properly or eliminated all together. If you're going to ban one person for 2 boxing/exploiting and then turn around and let another player walk with a warning, you're already sending the wrong message to the players.

I'm just talking about rules going unenforced in general, or being "half" enforced. Shit needs to stop, or change, or something. There are folks on this server continually getting away with breaking the rules while others are banned instantly, how is this fair? Also, how are these folks evading the ban hammer?

For instance, how is Jeremy not banned when that fellow who tiggles' caught boxing was banned? They both essentially were using their IP exemptions to gain an unfair advantage over those of us who follow the rules. Rules need to be enforced fairly across the board, or not enforced at all.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just talking about rules going unenforced in general, or being "half" enforced. Shit needs to stop, or change, or something. There are folks on this server continually getting away with breaking the rules while others are banned instantly, how is this fair? Also, how are these folks evading the ban hammer?

For instance, how is Jeremy not banned when that fellow who tiggles' caught boxing was banned? They both essentially were using their IP exemptions to gain an unfair advantage over those of us who follow the rules. Rules need to be enforced fairly across the board, or not enforced at all.

Well, they have known (it was well known during the IB/VD vs TMO war) that IP exemptions let you log in without getting that "Please wait for whatever the fuck reason" message. Basically giving you a few second advantage in a game where milliseconds count.

They never banned anyone for doing it before and I don't know why they kept giving out IP exemptions for that shit (people were putting in exemptions left and right for it).

However, 2 boxing has always been one of the most harsh punishments on p99, so blatantly doing that is a sure fire way to get banned. Jeremy can attest to that.

As far as rule enforcement went, I think it's pretty obvious that each GM enforces the rules to how they want and not really a "by the book" deal. It's what you get when your work force does it for a hobby and not a check, no real incentive to not make friends or play favorites.

I mean, look at my petition to get that MQ flag stuff resolved. I never used the shit and even had Ambrotos state he knew I would never use it, yet it never went anywhere. G13'd the shit out of my petition lol.

Now I've seen other people in the past who got to deal with other staff members get their stuff lifted in no time. Just the way it goes.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Manguadi isn't in FE anymore, and he controlled Xeli.

Duct tape? lol atleast we don't use 3rd party auto-fire programs like certain members of TMO.

Actually you did... that is the Duct Tape joke... lol Also, no TMO has used Autofire.

Eccezan may not have used MQ, but one of his accounts was flagged and never banned, which is far from fair to the other folks who's accounts WERE banned for being flagged (regardless of whether they used or not)

Ecc didn't use MQ is was provenWho are you saying is banned and didnt use MQ? Derp