Hybrid Experience Penalties

[Goobles]

To clarify exp penalties..

In Dungeons and Dragons, a 'multiclass' is possible, but at a penalty. The complete ruling is at the following link: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Multiclass_Characters

The brief overview:
Levels are based on exp gained. Once a character reaches ECL (effective character level), he may choose to increase his class level to 2, or multi class level (say rogue/wizard) to 1rogue/1wizard. He would gain experience at a level 2 character, but the only reason a rogue might take a class in wizard is to read scrolls and learn level 0 wizard spells. He will gain exp as a level 2 character in the case.

How this applies to EQ: Every MMoRPG is based off of D&D. Classes, races, etc... you get bonuses, and have negatives based on your race. Your class is pretty much your profession. Using the explanation above - instead of levelling each of your class levels individually, EQ has the following multiclasses: Paladin (Cleric/Warrior), Shadowknight (Necro/Warrior), Ranger (Druid/Warrior). It imposes an exp penalty to make up for levelling each class individually, and it's faster than the penalty of levelling two classes to the same level in D&D.

[Enig]

Actually, I was just looking for the percentages as they apply to this server. Like what % exp penalty does a bard have? Or what about and ogre sk vs a troll sk? Just curious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Casezilla]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bottom line, if it takes hybrids longer to learn a new level, then they can't keep up with their friends. That, however, is fairer than letting the entire group suffer the penalty.

You're missing the point here. It isn't about fairness, it is about being true to EQ in 1999. No one knows for sure why SoE added class penalties. Perhaps they had originally planned that hybrids would be more powerful at high levels than other classes, who knows. In the end, this ended up not being the case, and everyone, including SoE, eventually realized that the penalties were unfair.

The problem with the hybrid XP penalty on this server is it is NOT implemented like it was in actual EQ. As others have mentioned, a hybrid would level at the same speed as others when grouped. Whether this was by sharing the penalty with group members (as the '01 producer's letter seems to suggest) or by giving hybrids bonus XP when grouped (as someone suggested in the thread) is another question.

Because of this, the "because that's how it was in classic" argument for XP penalties on this server is thrown out the window, and instead we're left with a horrible, non-classic game design decision that is obviously unfair. The penalties should either be fixed to function as they did during classic, or removed.

It can be argued that the penalties in their current form are no more closer to classic than having no penalties.

Classic EQ:
Solo: Hybrids leveled slower than a non-hybrid soloer
Grouped: Hybrids leveled at the same speed as others in their group

Project 1999, current approach:
Solo: Hybrids level slower than a non-hybrid soloer (LIKE classic)
Grouped: Hybrids level slower than the non-hybrids in their group (NOT LIKE classic)

Project 1999, no penalties:
Solo: Hybrids level at the same speed as non-hybrid soloers (NOT LIKE classic)
Grouped: Hybrids level at the same speed as non-hybrids in their group (LIKE classic)

I would argue that being able to level at the same speed as others in your group is MUCH more important to the integrity of this server than making hybrids level slower while soloing (most hybrids aren't soloing much anyway). In classic, a group of friends could create new chars of any class and level up together without having to worry about anyone outpacing anyone else (maybe Wars and Rogues would slightly outpace others). Currently on P1999, a group like this is not feasible unless you make sure everyone has similar or equal penalties (which is a ridiculous thing to have to consider when forming such a group).

I am not against having classic XP penalties on this server. However, non-classic penalties that are not even objectively closer to a classic experience than having no penalties at all is all kinds of ridiculous.

[Halladar]

look here is a letter from 2001:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/edit...rs_letter.html

they made some changes to experience in this one, but you can extract some stuff from it.

From what I can gather on live before this letter at least, hybrids had a 40% penalty, monks 20%, and int caster 10%. rogues and warriors had an experience bonus. The letter didn't state what the class bonus for rogues and warriors was, but it was either 5% or 10%.

Okay, hybrids 40%, monks 20%, int caster 10%. No other class had a penalty, and rogues and warriors had a bonus. Oh yeah, bards counted as a hybrid.

Now as far as races go. Big races had a penalty. Trolls had the worst. Then ogres. Then barbs. I'm not sure what the troll penalty was but it was like 10 or 20% or something. I know barbs were 5% and I think ogres were as well.

No other original race had a penalty, though I might add that halflings got the xp bonus of 5% that was supposed to go to humans. And they have kept it for all of live. They said it was some kind of error in database coding way back and it would be too "disruptive" to fix it. Although they never stated in anyway that the human xp bonus hinted at in their game info was really going to halflings, until the show eq people found it.

Now as far as I know this game is supposed to be like eq 1999.

Exactly.

Your guess is as good as mine, but if they actually gave halflings the xp bonus that was supposed to go to humans, I am going to rofl.

It'd be like a cargo cult.

[Halladar]

Oh yeah, just wanted to add I'm not sure how the xp penalties stacked. Like were they additive or multiplicative.

For example sk's have 40% penalty. Say trolls have a 20% penalty.

Does a troll sk have a 40 + 20 = 60% penalty?

Or is it 1.0*1.4*1.2?

I got no idea on that. For some reason I thought it was additive.

But there are a lot of experienced players here and someone should know this stuff better than I do.

[Casezilla]

Originally Posted by Goobles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To clarify exp penalties..

In Dungeons and Dragons, a 'multiclass' is possible, but at a penalty. The complete ruling is at the following link: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Multiclass_Characters

The brief overview:
Levels are based on exp gained. Once a character reaches ECL (effective character level), he may choose to increase his class level to 2, or multi class level (say rogue/wizard) to 1rogue/1wizard. He would gain experience at a level 2 character, but the only reason a rogue might take a class in wizard is to read scrolls and learn level 0 wizard spells. He will gain exp as a level 2 character in the case.

How this applies to EQ: Every MMoRPG is based off of D&D. Classes, races, etc... you get bonuses, and have negatives based on your race. Your class is pretty much your profession. Using the explanation above - instead of levelling each of your class levels individually, EQ has the following multiclasses: Paladin (Cleric/Warrior), Shadowknight (Necro/Warrior), Ranger (Druid/Warrior). It imposes an exp penalty to make up for levelling each class individually, and it's faster than the penalty of levelling two classes to the same level in D&D.

And what classes is a Bard multiclassing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]? And what about a monk's penalty, or an INT caster's penalty. How can you relate those to D&D?

The hybrids in EQ are not multiclasses. They have class abilities that define them as a unique class. They also do not receive every spell or ability that their supposed parent classes receive. If a Paladin, for example, was a true War/Cleric multiclass, taking some percentage of levels as a warrior and some as a cleric, a level 50 paladin would be able to gate, bind, dual wield, etc.

On top of that, even in D&D at least Paladins, Rangers and Bards have been distinct classes for a long time. No cleric/warrior multiclassing required.