Ever seen real European sword fight

[Hasbinbad]

Wootz for Damascus steel! (do u c wat i did ther?)

Originally Posted by Lyle Brunckhorst

I get asked this kind of question a lot lately and I also hear things like, Jeez Damascus is a lost art, isn’t it? Or Damascus is sharper than ordinary steel and on and on. Well these are valid questions and can not be answered in a few words like yup sure is or nope it aint. The problem of a short answer is also due to, what is Damascus steel? Many folks have heard the term Damascus, have heard of Japanese swords and have been subject to some misleading information along the way. I sometimes hear people say things like; katana are folded a million times and can cut machinegun barrels. Or how about the story of the blade that cut the anvil in half that made it. Or the Japanese sword that is so sharp that it will cut a leaf in half upon contacting the sword edge as it floats down the creek. And then there is the old falling silk scarf story. Hey Kevin Costner showed us that one in a movie, right.
In a way, I hate to lift the veils of lore and let the bright rays of enlightenment shine in, but some of us are taking these things a little too serious, aren’t we? And yet we can’t help but wonder at times if just maybe there may be a very small glimmer of truth somewhere in one or more of these tails.

In June of 2002 I held a Damascus symposium here at the shop and one of the featured speakers Dr. Sung Beck is a Grandmaster Swordsman. He delighted us with his exquisite collection of Chinese and Japanese swords and also with his finely tuned wit and story telling abilities.
His humorous stories had a point though, pun not intended, and gave us just a little insight as to what it was and is all about. His stories told us how to straighten a bent Japanese sword by banging it over a log or using a monkey wrench and how to pick out a good one for battle; they were truly enlightening and gave us all something to think about. Dr. Beck made many comments from his observations from his past training of cutting numerous things for practice with Chinese and Japanese swords over the years and some of them made perfect sense and others I will have to think about for a spell.

OK, before we get rolling let’s start with just a smattering of background to pave the way. Damascus is a place in Syria and is where westerners first observed the famed swords of the Far East. Actually they were made in India from a steel called wootz and only discovered in the city of Damascus. Wootz steel is melted in small sealed clay crucibles from steel scraps and carbon bearing materials and after solidifying, were then forged at a very low heat into sword blades. Sword remnants tested for content were often found to contain a fair amount of sulfur and phosphorous. It is believed that this made the cast ingots red short, difficult to forge and is very likely the governing secret to the success of Damascus blades. The higher heats that the European smiths were accustomed to, would have crumbled the steel and it also would not have produced the kind of steel that made them famous. Although the task of forging at such a low and narrow band of temperature was difficult, the first side-affect or benefit was tougher and springier steel with superior edge holding properties. The second benefit was the pattern formed by the ghosting of the dendrites which were formed during the slow initial cooling of the ingot. It was discovered recently by Al Pendray and Dr. John Verhoeven that the trace amounts of vanadium were responsible for forming the Damascus patterns because they aligned along the grain boundaries of the dendrites and due to forging at a reduced heat, retained the image throughout the forging process. Although it was the dendrite pattern that gave rise to the Damascening, they soon learned also how to enhance the patterns mechanically.

During this same time frame the Japanese were discovering the methods of producing fine steel blades from iron ore panned from the rivers. This panned ore was smelted in a wood coke furnace and the crude metal was broken up into pieces, forged flat and stacked into billets. These stacks were forge welded together and forged to length. Then it was folded first length wise and after welding and forging again folded sideways and welded again. This process was repeated from 8 to 16 times in order to refine the impurities out of the steel and to remove excess carbon. If you will get out your calculator, you will find that 16 folds will give you 65,536layers of steel if you start with one single layer, if you started with an 8 layer stack, 17 folds will give you 1,048,576 layers. How many layers would you get if you folded the steel one million times? Now this is assuming that you would have the time or, due to material loss from scaling, any thing left to work with.

Now when the sword is forged out of this steel, all of the layers will be lined up and going in the same direction. Any flexing of the blade sideways will be stretching half of these layers and compressing the other half. For sure, this would be as strong and resilient as a modern day forged blade of solid non layered steel. In fact I think that it can be argued that the layered steel would be more resilient because any stress cracking may be stopped as it reaches the next layer. Flexing the sword blade up or down would be the same as any other homogenous blade as each layer is undergoing the same stresses.

Modern day Damascus or Pattern welded steel is manipulated in various ways to produce some very striking looking patterns. Many of these layers will be aligned in such an order as to produce a sound blade, but some of the layers will be running contrary to that which will produce a good blade. In other words some layers will weaken a blade because of an adverse alignment of weld lines. In such a blade, if you flex the blade sideways, the layers do not just stretch or compress, they could pull apart at the welds. A multi bar composite blade or a sanmai blade will have built in factors favorable to the strength of the blade if done in the right way.

A many layered blade will likely have weld lines running across the edge and this will give the edge a micro serration edge. This edge will feel sharper than a homogenous blade and will out cut a conventional blade using a slicing motion. By folding the steel billet like a paper airplane, according to Dr. Beck, the Japanese could improve the swords cutting abilities on the tip’s first couple of inches. This is the working part, the rest of the blade is there to put the first two inches into proper reach. He also suggested that the sword could be made to cut either on a forward slice or on a rearward slice depending on the way the folds were made.

When you boil it all down, cutting is a function of blade geometry, hardness, toughness, sharpness, micro edge serration and technique. Yes Damascus can be stronger, no it sometimes isn’t. Yes Damascus does feel sharper and for many cutting tasks will out perform a conventional blade.

It is interesting to note that Damascus swords and the katana had a parallel history a world apart from each other and both had an impact on the rest of the world. It is also interesting that both art forms were very nearly lost, indeed, one had to be reinvented. The modern day Damascus or (pattern welded blade) is a blend of both ancient arts and has taken on a life of its own. According to Dr. Verhoeven, pattern welding predates both of these technologies. Check out the Historical Background of Damascus steel by Dr. John Verhoeven Today’s patterns have transcended those of ancient times, but are they as battle worthy? I believe that many modern day smiths have the capability of producing a blade just as battle worthy as their ancient counterparts and better. And yes there likely are a some blades that although very beautiful will not stand up to battle conditions.

If art is truly, “form follows function”, then where does that leave some of today’s stunning looking blades? I would suggest that the really true art form is in both beauty and functionality.

As far as the sword breaker and parrying dagger.. Specialized defensive tools are no mystery to Japan:

Allow me to introduce the Kabuto Wari (Helmet Breaker). Armorsmiths in the edo period prided themselves on being able to make helmets that katana could not cut, and a swordsmith was tasked with creating a blade that could, upon pain of hara-kiri; the result was a heavy blade that didn't look like much, but could cut through a heavy steel helmet at close range:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The above is the precursor to the Jutte, an edo-period police baton, which could also be used to catch and break a katana:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which reminds me that you like clubs, and that I forgot about the Kanabo:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Hasbinbad]

..and let's not forget that most effective and devastating of all clubs, used today by martial artists and riot control squads alike, the Japanese-invented Tonfa:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ahhh.. When you absolutely, positively, gotta beat the holy living shit out of every motherfucker in the room, the metal tonfa:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[ShadowWulf]

The European Stiletto had the exact same purpose of punching through armor, plate and chain alike.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you boil it all down, cutting is a function of blade geometry, hardness, toughness, sharpness, micro edge serration and technique. Yes Damascus can be stronger, no it sometimes isn’t. Yes Damascus does feel sharper and for many cutting tasks will out perform a conventional blade.

You make an excellent point, well the article does. The styles are wonderful though and the debate over the "best" is one of those maker defined issues, not a concrete issue really.

Clubs are great, but I think we should bring the Man Catcher back for riot control...

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Hasbinbad]

They have that in Japan too!

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In fact, they still use it! These are modern Sasumata that you might find in any modern school:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

..where they are used by teachers to capture creepy men hanging around schools (a big problem in Japan):

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Dork]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[mgellan]

/agree!!!!

[ShadowWulf]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Swiss, with their head-down attack in huge columns with the long pike, refusal to take prisoners, and consistent record of victory, were greatly feared and admired—for instance, Machiavelli addresses their system of combat at length in The Prince. The Valois Kings of France, in fact, considered it a virtual impossibility to take the field of battle without Swiss pikemen as the infantry core of their armies. (Although often referred to as "pikemen," the Swiss mercenary units also contained halberdiers as well until several decades into the sixteenth century, as well as a small number of skirmishers armed with crossbows or crude firearms to precede the rapid advance of the attack column.)

The young men who went off to fight, and sometimes die, in foreign service had several incentives—limited economic options in the still largely-rural cantons; adventure; pride in the reputation of the Swiss as soldiers; and finally what military historian Sir Charles Oman describes as a pure love of combat and warfighting in and of itself, forged by two centuries of conflict.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

super high res here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...wendenkmal.JPG

From the early 17th century, a regiment of Swiss mercenaries had served as part of the Royal Household of France. On 6 October 1789, King Louis XVI had been forced to move with his family from the Palace of Versailles to the Tuileries Palace in Paris. In June 1791 he tried to flee abroad. In the 1792 10th of August Insurrection, revolutionaries stormed the palace. Fighting broke out spontaneously after the Royal Family had been escorted from the Tuileries to take refuge with the Legislative Assembly. The Swiss ran low on ammunition and were overwhelmed by superior numbers. A note written by the King has survived, ordering the Swiss to retire and return to their barracks, but this was only acted on after their position had become untenable.

Of the Swiss Guards defending the Tuileries, more than six hundred were killed during the fighting or massacred after surrender. An estimated two hundred more died in prison of their wounds or were killed during the September Massacres that followed. Apart from about a hundred Swiss who escaped from the Tuileries, the only survivors of the regiment were a 300 strong detachment which had been sent to Normandy a few days before August 10. The Swiss officers were mostly amongst those massacred, although Major Karl Josef von Bachmann — in command at the Tuileries — was formally tried and guillotined in September, still wearing his red uniform coat. However two surviving Swiss officers went on to reach senior rank under Napoleon.

The initiative to create the monument was taken by Karl Pfyffer von Altishofen, an officer of the Guards who had been on leave in Lucerne at that time of the fight. He began collecting money in 1818. The monument was designed by Danish sculptor Bertel Thorvaldsen, and finally hewn in 1820–21 by Lukas Ahorn, in a former sandstone quarry near Lucerne.

The monument is dedicated Helvetiorum Fidei ac Virtuti ("To the loyalty and bravery of the Swiss"). The dying lion is portrayed impaled by a spear, covering a shield bearing the fleur-de-lis of the French monarchy; beside him is another shield bearing the coat of arms of Switzerland. The inscription below the sculpture lists the names of the officers, and approximate numbers of the soldiers who died (DCCLX = 760), and survived (CCCL = 350).

And, thus ended the noble legacy of the Swiss Mercenaries. This memorial remains in my opinion one of the most beautiful and meaningful I have ever seen.

[Arteker]

U Are wrong . do some research .u forgot That swiss royal regiment was also on service of spain and infact Reding and his swiss regiment were the key to the french defeat at bailen .

And worse the swiss mercs were cured of his tenacity by the spaniards on bicocca (having the honor to be the first army to lost agaisnt a army made almost of arquebusiers).

[ShadowWulf]

Originally Posted by Arteker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

U Are wrong . do some research .u forgot That swiss royal regiment was also on service of spain and infact Reding and his swiss regiment were the key to the french defeat at bailen .

And worse the swiss mercs were cured of his tenacity by the spaniards on bicocca (having the honor to be the first army to lost agaisnt a army made almost of arquebusiers).

Yes you are correct more or less. I was off my a few decades.

From the latter part of the seventeenth century these could be found serving in Spain itself or in its possessions, and fought against Portugal, against rebellions in Catalonia, in the War of the Spanish Succession, War of the Polish Succession, War of the Austrian Succession (in the fighting in Italy), and against Britain in the American Revolutionary War. Their final role in Spanish service was against the French in the Peninsular War, in which the six Swiss regiments in the Spanish army mostly stayed loyal to the Spanish—at the Battle of Bailén, the Swiss regiments pressed into French service defected back to the Spanish Army Swiss under Reding—and were eventually ground down by years of fighting. The year 1823 finally saw the end of Swiss mercenary service with the Spanish army.

Military alliances were banned under the Swiss constitution of 1848, though troops still served abroad when obliged by treaties. One such example were the Swiss serving under Francis II of the Two Sicilies who defended Gaeta in 1860 during the Italian War of Unification. This marked the end of an era.

Since 1859, only one mercenary unit has been permitted: the Vatican's Swiss Guard, which has been protecting the Pope for the last five centuries, dressed in colorful uniforms reminiscent of the Swiss mercenary's heyday. Despite it being prohibited, individual Swiss citizens carried on the tradition of foreign military service into the twentieth century, including participation in the Spanish Civil War, usually on the Republican side.

The end of an era, and the birth of the "proofing" concept in regards to armor.

[Wargazm]

I always thought the Chinese hook sword was a pretty nifty and versitile weapon:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]