Another Perspective

[jimthayner]

Originally Posted by AimAce [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay jim, I really don't want to make this a rant / flame thread. But I have to say, you sound like a high schooler who took one class of philosophy and thinks you're the top dog now.

What you are doing, is ignoring the issue at hand by presenting a different issue. This is a fallacy. To be fancy, some might even say it begs the question, as breaking an EULA of EQLive =/= breaking an EULA of P1999.

You are doing multiple things wrong;

1. You are ignoring the issue at hand;
We don't care we are "cheating Sony out of their money", because we probably aren't (due to the fact that we want a p1999 experience and NOT a live experience). We care about whether or not we are being treated equally. You talking about live / Sony / we are all illegal is a complete diversion from the issue.

For example, "OMG WAR IS BAD GUYS!" And you respond with, "Yea, but are human real? Do we really exist? War is okay, because we don't even exist guys!"

That is stupid. You are stupid.

2. You imply that because we break one rule, all rules must be null and void;
That's even more ridiculous. So since we are cheating Sony of their EULA, we might as well throw caution to the wind about all rules? Lulz I died here. Okay, so I committed robbery the other night, and I knew I was gonna get caught. At this point, I might as well go around murdering people AMIRITE? Look at the different situations of each "law" being broken.

Sony is neither here nor there, since this is p1999 not EQlive. If Sony has an issue with p1999, its Sony's job to act on it, not ours. If we have an issue with P1999's players, its our jobs to act on it.

3. And finally, I'll address your actual claim.


Sony *does* have a right to control its intellectual property. And yes, we MAY very well be violating their wishes. But guess what? Their wishes affect *all* of us whether or not we care. Their decision is almost completely irrelevant to us in the sense that it's not a democracy, we can't choose whether or not to stop it. Further more it affects everyone here *EQUALLY*.

So Sony might as well be an entity like the Emperor of Everquest (including P1999) while this is only ONE of the many towns. If Sony decides to squash our town, then we all lose. Then so be it. But during that time where we are all a part of this community, we will do whatever we can to make it a place that we can all enjoy. If this includes pointless witchhunts or asking for harder punishments for the cheaters, then it's within our right to do so. We aren't forcing anyone to do it, merely asking.


In closing, please learn to argue because you're very bad at it, not playing devil's advocate whatsoever etc~

I find this funny, because I've told high schoolers that have taken 1 philosophy class the exact same thing.

All you've said is "well, I don't care." That's pretty much the same as saying, "do we really exist?"

I think you're pretty bad at this whole debate thing. Primarily, because I have stated fact and cited it, as well as cited case law as decided by the American Judicial branch.

Basically:

ME: Well, I can cite case law and sources to back up my arguments.
YOU: Well, I just don't care that what I'm doing is wrong. You're a towel.

All I've heard are the following arguments:

1. Well, I don't care about the law/EULA/Sony's wishes.
2. Sony isn't offering he exact same thing, so what I'm doing is okay.
3. Because Sony hasn't stopped P1999 yet, we're all not wrong.

AimAce in particular, I'd like you to quote me where I've said we should allow cheating on this server, or that because we're violating EULA and copyright law we should allow cheating on this server. I'm a huge advocate of preventing cheating in MMORPGs.

Had you been paying attention, you would have realized that I'm advocating that people examine their own hypocrisy before sounding like ass clowns.

Sony is neither here nor there, since this is p1999 not EQlive. If Sony has an issue with p1999, its Sony's job to act on it, not ours. If we have an issue with P1999's players, its our jobs to act on it.

You're the dumbest person I know, or you just didn't read the source earlier (I'm going with the latter). MDY Industries vs. Blizzard Entertainment pretty much ruled that we are legally bound to abide by Sony's End User License agreement, regardless if we care, we're hurting Sony, or if Sony is running P1999.

If WoW Glider got shut down because they're providing the means for violating WoW's EULA, then P1999 could get shut down for violating the law (in particular, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act) and providing the means for violating Sony's EULA.

Someone, anyone, please make an argument that is based on case law, legal precedent, and sources...ANY source at this point. Being able to cite sources, even wikipedia (which cites its sources, although anyone can edit) is better than just saying how you feel, or that you don't care.

[AimAce]

I don't think you understand what I am trying to get across.

This isn't about previous cases where this is illegal, because I agree. P1999 is possibly illegal.

What you need to understand, is this doesn't change anything. You want the players to 'look at the log in their own eye before point out the splinter in others' that's cool and all, but why should they? *We are ALL* committing the crime of "playing illegally". That's a given. That's the only way this server could exist, is the fact that...well, it exists and we play on it.

What players are griping about, is inequalities / rule breaking WITHIN the sandbox.

You want us to find sources or previous cases of law where an EMU like p1999 has won the case. That might not exist. That doesn't prove you right to question our "hypocrisy" because we are NOT being hypocrites! If there was a rule in P1999 that said "you are not allowed to play here" then yes, yes we are all indeed hypocrites. But there is no such rule. Again, you need to read my post about

So Sony might as well be an entity like the Emperor of Everquest (including P1999) while this is only ONE of the many towns. If Sony decides to squash our town, then we all lose. Then so be it. But during that time where we are all a part of this community, we will do whatever we can to make it a place that we can all enjoy. If this includes pointless witchhunts or asking for harder punishments for the cheaters, then it's within our right to do so. We aren't forcing anyone to do it, merely asking.

What we do in p1999 is our actions. We are abiding by p1999 'laws' and we are only looking at p1999 'laws'. None of us are talking about Sony's 'laws'.

What you need to understand is you aren't playing devil's advocate, you are just creating a diversion.

[snorri]

Originally Posted by jimthayner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. We are stealing Sony's intellectual property for the personal gain of playing for free and getting the classic EQ experience.

Stealing is theft, theft is removing something from its owner. Intellectual property cannot be stolen unless the creator has lost what they made.

Originally Posted by jimthayner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. This whole server, and game, is a copyrighted material and we are using this message board to discuss methods to illegally obtain copyrighted materials (from downloading the version of this game required to play to the actual hosting of this illegal Everquest server).

Untrue. The management has never (to my knowledge) suggested pirating the software. If some 'bad apples' break the rules and suggest that on the forums, then sure, censor them or ban them.

Originally Posted by jimthayner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They need to take a good, honest, look at their own hypocrisy when it comes to unethical behavior and infringing upon Sony's right to not be *cheated* out of their right to profit from their own creative work...

If the point of this post was about ethics, how's this:

I paid for my software. I have every ethical right to do what I want with it. If I want to edit it, I can. If I want to point my host file somewhere else, I can.

Sony is not being cheated out of anything. Do they offer a classic/trilogy server? No. So they wouldn't be getting paid anyway. If Sony provided the same service, and everyone just played here because it was free, then Sony might be losing money. But that's not the case.

Don't confuse breaking the EULA with law or morality. If you want to argue leniency for the cheaters, you need to do it a different way.

[jimthayner]

Originally Posted by snorri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stealing is theft, theft is removing something from its owner. Intellectual property cannot be stolen unless the creator has lost what they made.



Untrue. The management has never (to my knowledge) suggested pirating the software. If some 'bad apples' break the rules and suggest that on the forums, then sure, censor them or ban them.



If the point of this post was about ethics, how's this:

I paid for my software. I have every ethical right to do what I want with it. If I want to edit it, I can. If I want to point my host file somewhere else, I can.

Sony is not being cheated out of anything. Do they offer a classic/trilogy server? No. So they wouldn't be getting paid anyway. If Sony provided the same service, and everyone just played here because it was free, then Sony might be losing money. But that's not the case.

Don't confuse breaking the EULA with law or morality. If you want to argue leniency for the cheaters, you need to do it a different way.

Wrong, wrong wrong.

1. While you may have a right to do what you want with software you purchased, YOU DID NOT PURCHASE THE SOFTWARE...you merely purchased a license for it, and you are obligated ethically to abide by that license says you should not use emulated servers. Period.

2. Regardless of whether or not Sony is offering a classic server is academic. As far as copyright law is concerned, if you attempt top publish half of a novel and distribute it for free, you're still violating the law.

3. Now, Roegan tried to make the point that "We're just violating the EULA, not the law." Not true. Recently, the Supreme Court ruled in the case of Blizzard vs. WoW Glider (an addon program to World of Warcraft) that WoW Glider violated U.S. Copyright law because WoW Glider copied parts of WoW's code into the RAM of a computer.

I shit you not, copying computer code into the RAM of a computer constitutes copyright violation, according to the Supreme Court. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDY_Ind..._Entm%27t,_Inc.)

Now, since we're running Everquest in violation of the software licenses we purchased *we did not purchase software, we purchased licenses*, Citing MDY Industries vs. Blizzard, (http://virtuallyblind.com/files/mdy/07-14-08_Order.pdf) that as licenses, not owners of Everquest software, we are required BY LAW to make use of that software within the scope of the End User License Agreement.


If someone wants to cite legal precedent, make a coherent argument, or say something other than "well, Sony isn't losing anything, therefore its okay" I'd like to hear it.

[Curmudgen]

I would say great to the original premise. Still, I would agree with the bans. So what. There is no reason to comment on a mute point.

[Uthgaard]

Originally Posted by jimthayner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Above is quoted from Everquest's End User License Agreement. With all the drama relating about bans and cheating, I wanted to offer a another perspective and play Devil's Advocate.

1. We are all cheating. We are cheating Sony out of their rights to control their own intellectual property, created through years of R&D and most likely millions of dollars spent. With Uthgaard's (and others) seemingly ultra-conservative "Law & Order" stance toward cheating, they should take a good look at themselves before getting up on the soap box about using ShowEQ and other third party programs.

2. "Players need to use their common sense here and not do unethical things for personal gain." This is quoted directly from the "Server Rules" thread here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1057.
Once again, I'd like to point out that we are all doing an "unethical thing" by violating Sony's EULA for Everquest. We are stealing Sony's intellectual property for the personal gain of playing for free and getting the classic EQ experience. Hypocrisy strike #2.

3. "DO NOT post copyrighted materials, links to get copyrighted materials, or discuss illegal methods to obtain copyrighted materials." Once again, quoted from the Server Rules. We are all violating this rule just by playing P1999! Where is the "ban the cheaters crowd for violating the server rules?" This whole server, and game, is a copyrighted material and we are using this message board to discuss methods to illegally obtain copyrighted materials (from downloading the version of this game required to play to the actual hosting of this illegal Everquest server).

In conclusion, the ultra-conservative stance of "ban the cheaters" is parallel to (I said "parallel to", not "equal to") the "Law & Order" political right's stance of "hang 'em all." Now, I'd be absolutely thrilled if P1999's player base was generally Republican/Conservative, but I have a feeling that the majority of P1999's player base is Democrat/liberal. "Hang 'em all" has never been a philosophy subscribed to by rational, free thinking people.

In the end, the Admins of this server have every right to ban anyone they want, for any reason they decide. The Supreme Court case involving the Boy Scouts and their policy of of discrimination against gays reinforced a citizen's Constitutional (and God given) right to control their property (and in this case, the P1999 server's access).

However, I think that those who subscribe to a "ban them all" mentality need to take a good look at themselves before they post photo shopped images supporting a 'ban them all' policy. They need to take a good, honest, look at their own hypocrisy when it comes to unethical behavior and infringing upon Sony's right to not be *cheated* out of their right to profit from their own creative work...before they post flames/rants/really lame photo shopped images.

Going by jim now jessica?

I have a question, and it's really more curiosity than anything. Does SoE know you were using your position with them as a security consultant to compromise p99 accounts? Do you think the more clandestine activities you participate in could be tied to being responsible for that big compromise that they had? I mean, they don't hire the best or the brightest, so they probably never thought to conduct an internal investigation. They're still looking for someone to lynch for that, aren't they? Man, that would be a lot of jail time. Toeman would miss you I bet.

[jimthayner]

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Going by jim now jessica?

I have a question, and it's really more curiosity than anything. Does SoE know you were using your position with them as a security consultant to compromise p99 accounts? Do you think the more clandestine activities you participate in could be tied to being responsible for that big compromise that they had? I mean, they don't hire the best or the brightest, so they probably never thought to conduct an internal investigation. They're still looking for someone to lynch for that, aren't they? Man, that would be a lot of jail time. Toeman would miss you I bet.

Crap. You better be careful, Uthgaard. Sony's going to send a hit squad out against you for blowing my cover as a secret agent within P1999.

I've been covertly gathering evidence on Sony's behalf for the past year for their massive lawsuit. Since Uthgaard has outed me, Sony will undoubtably be displeased with both of us and mark us for "executive action."

Fortunately, I'll be in Afghanistan two weeks from now, and be out of Sony's reach, surrounded by other soldiers with guns. I hope you have a lots of guns, Uthgaard.

[KB_Trader]

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Going by jim now jessica?

I have a question, and it's really more curiosity than anything. Does SoE know you were using your position with them as a security consultant to compromise p99 accounts? Do you think the more clandestine activities you participate in could be tied to being responsible for that big compromise that they had? I mean, they don't hire the best or the brightest, so they probably never thought to conduct an internal investigation. They're still looking for someone to lynch for that, aren't they? Man, that would be a lot of jail time. Toeman would miss you I bet.

More info on this. Sounds juicy.

[Humerox]

Originally Posted by jimthayner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If someone wants to cite legal precedent, make a coherent argument, or say something other than "well, Sony isn't losing anything, therefore its okay" I'd like to hear it.

I'm certainly not an expert on copyright law, but it's my understanding that, in order to be criminal, there have to be certain factors involved.

1) commercial advantage or private financial gain.
2) reproduction or distribution of a work that has retail value
3) distribution of a work intended for commercial distribution

Anything and everything tied into copyright law has to do with value and damages received from the loss of said value.

IF Sony recreated a totally classic environment then it might be different. It could be argued that classic is so far removed from "live" that it's not the same game. Sony doesn't see the market, they don't feel they're really being hurt financially, otherwise they'd squash the project like a bug.

As far as copyright itself is concerned, corporations and lobbyists have made sure that the original intention of copyright will never see the light of day...but that's another argument.

EDIT: The "we're all cheaters so it doesn't matter" slant is ummm...BS, btw. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[jimthayner]

Originally Posted by Humerox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm certainly not an expert on copyright law, but it's my understanding that, in order to be criminal, there have to be certain factors involved.

1) commercial advantage or private financial gain.
2) reproduction or distribution of a work that has retail value
3) distribution of a work intended for commercial distribution

Anything and everything tied into copyright law has to do with value and damages received from the loss of said value.

IF Sony recreated a totally classic environment then it might be different. It could be argued that classic is so far removed from "live" that it's not the same game. Sony doesn't see the market, they don't feel they're really being hurt financially, otherwise they'd squash the project like a bug.

As far as copyright itself is concerned, corporations and lobbyists have made sure that the original intention of copyright will never see the light of day...but that's another argument.

Those are common misconceptions about copyright law. I cited some case law (MDY Industries v Blizzard) According to the Digital Rights Millennium Act, software license holders are obligated by law to abide by the End User License Agreement. This is something usually handled in civil court.

The fact that Sony does not offer Everquest with only vanilla and Kunark is irrelevant, as the DRMA and subsequent precedent make it clear that only the EULA matters, not if someone is profiting/doing any harm.

Aside from that, I agree that copyright law is a little out of hand. Blizzard should have lost its lawsuit with MDY Industries as I do not believe that copying data from a hard drive to RAM should constitute copyright infringement.

Blizzard was well within their rights to ban players caught using Glider, but they should not have "won the case" on hard drive to RAM constituting copyright infringement. The status quo should have been maintained, Blizzard has every right to ban people who cheat, but since WoW Glider was NOT stealing any code from Blizzard (they merely made their own, unique, third party software).

A man's computer is his castle, and if he wants to edit the memory of what is on his computer, he should have every right to do so. But MMO companies are well within their rights to decide who gets to play their game and who does not.