Do you believe in fatalism or free will?

[SorenVC]

Originally Posted by NopeNopeNopeNope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

Everything just happens TO YOU. Perfectly describes LGBTQ people. Fatalists will not complain. They will accept life as it is and deal with it.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Originally Posted by SorenVC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everything just happens TO YOU. Perfectly describes LGBTQ people. Fatalists will not complain. They will accept life as it is and deal with it.

LGBTQ people, like any people, do not think as some hivemind, believe it or not [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dems think as a hivemind lol (they don’t but I’d be more likely to agree with that one) But there are LGBT conservatives out there

[SorenVC]

I would argue that the more pain a person experiences the less he will believe in free will and instead bet all cards on fatalism. It is the most pleasant philosophy to believe in. If anyone asks you what you believe in you can call yourself an ultra-fatalist and that will answer all questions while not giving away anything about yourself. When you die, you leave this world. The world continues without you. So what makes you think that you have free will and are important? Even if you had free will, you could change nothing that would be important - hence fatalism rules everything.

[SorenVC]

Humility is the opposite of pride which is a sin. And humility is letting go of all control that you might have. Humility is counting yourself as NOT IMPORTANT - this it the ultimate truth for me. I am not important. Neither is anyone else. We will all die and the world will continue without us. So why not believe in fatalism and be content with what you have?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Dozens and dozens of Reddit bro’s have taken various forms of this argument during my time there. Except theirs was a bit more practical and less theological

Their argument was always “why can’t I be content where I am as single, lonely, and unemployed and not be some wage slave to a corporate overlord?”

The real issue is and always has been the work. “Wage slave” implies entry level jobs. The greater your skillset and education, the more leverage you have not just in pay but how you are treated as well. If these Reddit bros were just man enough to come out snd admit “hey man, it’s just too much work for me to improve my skillset that much” I’d be like /fistbump bro right there with ya. I don’t think I could become a doctor or engineer, that’s just too much school. But I at least have the balls to admit the truth and not try to do some mental gymnastics about how it’s really about capitalism and not my own personal laziness

[Lune]

Originally Posted by NopeNopeNopeNope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dozens and dozens of Reddit broÂ’s have taken various forms of this argument during my time there. Except theirs was a bit more practical and less theological

Their argument was always “why can’t I be content where I am as single, lonely, and unemployed and not be some wage slave to a corporate overlord?”

The real issue is and always has been the work. “Wage slave” implies entry level jobs. The greater your skillset and education, the more leverage you have not just in pay but how you are treated as well. If these Reddit bros were just man enough to come out snd admit “hey man, it’s just too much work for me to improve my skillset that much” I’d be like /fistbump bro right there with ya. I don’t think I could become a doctor or engineer, that’s just too much school. But I at least have the balls to admit the truth and not try to do some mental gymnastics about how it’s really about capitalism and not my own personal laziness

I think wage slave more implies non-meaningful work that doesn't bring fulfillment to your life, to some people that even means being a doctor (high suicide rate when they find out what the job actually is, basically a 7 minute assembly line for some healthcare corp).

The complaint is more as follows: Even if you're insanely skilled and competent, and work hard, there are very few paths to financial independence and fulfillment that don't involve being a toadie in some CEO's downline. Yes, if you excel in your work, you are able to leverage a larger piece of the pie for yourself, but as long as you are an employee and not an owner, most of the proceeds of your excellence are just going into someone's yacht fund. Fast forward 30 years, the vast majority of people have spent 10 hours a day 5 days a week carving out enough for themselves that yea, they've been able to kinda enjoy life, go on some vacations, buy a house, have some kids.

When you look in the backend you see that their zeal and drive to carve out a life for themselves was channeled into fuel for capitalism, for someone else's benefit. You were allowed to keep a hefty portion for yourself, but not without kicking up to the guy at the top of the pyramid. Very, very few people have the capacity to subvert this process.

In life, there is no way around having to work to earn your freedom, even if you work for yourself (unless you were born with money). I'm sure there are plenty of dropouts who do so out of laziness or just being too stupid, but I'd also argue that opting out on ideological terms can be a valid and honorable choice. On the other side of it, hustle culture is fucking insufferable.

What would Jesus do?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think wage slave more implies non-meaningful work that doesn't bring fulfillment to your life, to some people that even means being a doctor (high suicide rate when they find out what the job actually is, basically a 7 minute assembly line for some healthcare corp).

The complaint is more as follows: Even if you're insanely skilled and competent, and work hard, there are very few paths to financial independence and fulfillment that don't involve being a toadie in some CEO's downline. Yes, if you excel in your work, you are able to leverage a larger piece of the pie for yourself, but as long as you are an employee and not an owner, most of the proceeds of your excellence are just going into someone's yacht fund. Fast forward 30 years, the vast majority of people have spent 10 hours a day 5 days a week carving out enough for themselves that yea, they've been able to kinda enjoy life, go on some vacations, buy a house, have some kids.

When you look in the backend you see that their zeal and drive to carve out a life for themselves was channeled into fuel for capitalism, for someone else's benefit. You were allowed to keep a hefty portion for yourself, but not without kicking up to the guy at the top of the pyramid. Very, very few people have the capacity to subvert this process.

In life, there is no way around having to work to earn your freedom, even if you work for yourself (unless you were born with money). I'm sure there are plenty of dropouts who do so out of laziness or just being too stupid, but I'd also argue that opting out on ideological terms can be a valid and honorable choice. On the other side of it, hustle culture is fucking insufferable.

What would Jesus do?

I do agree it is harder than ever to support oneself and no longer the case where a man can support an entire family on his income alone

However, some of the benefits to working, as I see them are:

1. You are doing your community a service. There is no dishonorable job. From a garbage truck driver to a dishwasher to a CEO, you are doing a positive thing for your community. Pat yourself on the back. You are a champion

2. It puts you on a schedule. Retirement is a killer for one main reason: we are built to move and have purpose. Lose your purpose, stop moving, and you die. Well, much faster anyway

3. It helps keep your socialization in practice, for most jobs. Most Reddit bro recluses that are using TEH EVIL CAPITALISM as an excuse to not work are often human women repellant. And friend repellant. They are often loners with no social skills and are doing whatever they can to ensure that they don’t have to do any exposure therapy aka socialization practice to get better at socializing. Let’s just be a hermit forever and hope after I die that someone will notice the smell in a few weeks, yadda yadda

4. Going along with 3, it creates opportunities for those who develop social skills to network. People date co-workers, co-workers sometimes become roommates and best friends

That’s just off the top of my head, there are numerous other benefits

And what’s the alternative? To waste away in some parent’s basement complaining online about not being able to feel fulfilled in many jobs?

It may suck, or seem like it sucks (I don’t think it sucks even with a low paying job due to those benefits plus more) but it’s better than any alternative

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think wage slave more implies non-meaningful work that doesn't bring fulfillment to your life, to some people that even means being a doctor (high suicide rate when they find out what the job actually is, basically a 7 minute assembly line for some healthcare corp).

The complaint is more as follows: Even if you're insanely skilled and competent, and work hard, there are very few paths to financial independence and fulfillment that don't involve being a toadie in some CEO's downline. Yes, if you excel in your work, you are able to leverage a larger piece of the pie for yourself, but as long as you are an employee and not an owner, most of the proceeds of your excellence are just going into someone's yacht fund. Fast forward 30 years, the vast majority of people have spent 10 hours a day 5 days a week carving out enough for themselves that yea, they've been able to kinda enjoy life, go on some vacations, buy a house, have some kids.

When you look in the backend you see that their zeal and drive to carve out a life for themselves was channeled into fuel for capitalism, for someone else's benefit. You were allowed to keep a hefty portion for yourself, but not without kicking up to the guy at the top of the pyramid. Very, very few people have the capacity to subvert this process.

In life, there is no way around having to work to earn your freedom, even if you work for yourself (unless you were born with money). I'm sure there are plenty of dropouts who do so out of laziness or just being too stupid, but I'd also argue that opting out on ideological terms can be a valid and honorable choice. On the other side of it, hustle culture is fucking insufferable.

What would Jesus do?

The valuation and growth of CEO stock compensation has nearly nothing to do with the day-to-day activities of the business. Nothing is stolen.

[Lune]

Scientifically, we don't really know yet. At scales larger than subatomic particles, things generally work deterministically, that is, acting in an intricate and unbroken chain of causality stretching back to the Big Bang. Everything you have ever done or ever will do was determined at the instant of creation.

Quantum mechanics revealed some qualities of the universe that appear to behave probabilistically. There was a huge debate between Einstein and the determinists on one side and Niels Bohr and the quantum mechanics/randomness kooks on the other (this is where Einstein's "God Does Not Play Dice" quote came from. Most scientists these days lean toward randomness being real but there are still things like hidden variables theories (the guys who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 2022 won it for dunking on these hidden variables people).

There are still holdouts in the determinism camp, like superdeterminism, which basically argues there is an underlying deterministic godhand behind every supposedly 'random' result. This is probably unfalsifiable and is closer to a religion than a scientific theory.

So if probability is a real quality of the universe, it is very much possible that you actually have free will, that you are actually making your own decisions-- but it feels unlikely and I'll explain a few oblique ways it could be possible:

1. Orchestrated Objective Reduction: Argues that the microtubules in the neurons of your central nervous system bridge our consciousness with the quantum realm, and allow us to collapse wave functions as a singular entity to create our objective reality and essentially act as a quantum computer. Seems like mystical woo-woo shit right? Well consider that 100 years later we still have no fucking idea how general anesthesia works, we can't find a mechanism anywhere in the cells of our brain. But a few interesting studies in the last few years have found a connection to microtubules. Most consider this theory to be bullshit.

2. Allegory of the Cave, or Idealism: We entirely create or singularly experience our own reality, like a stream of data into a receiver. At the instant of observation, when the wave function collapses, and a pixel of the universe transforms from a wave function (data), to a particle (reality), it provides its 'causal history' contained within the wave (in the form of its energy, direction, amplitude etc). Was any of it actually real?

Einstein, questioning the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanical explanations for reality, famously was like "So you're saying the moon isn't there when I'm not observing it?". And the quantum mechanics/randomness people were like "You can't prove that it is". And they were right. Our observations, or at least the objective collapse of a wave function, have the power to ret-con their own history through time. This can also be explained as: they are neither a particle or a wave, they are nothing at all until we create/observe them. Indistinguishable from the fabric of the universe and reality.

In this paradigm, reality is nothing more than a stream of data, and we make real choices with our free will, and the stream constructs a plausible deterministic history. This would have some power in explaining things like synchronicities and the collective unconscious, basically themes in the fabric of the dream. (Interestingly, this idea came from a collaboration between Carl Jung, an analytic psychologist, and Wolfgang Pauli, one of the originators of quantum mechanics, both mystics).

Basically:

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[SorenVC]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Scientifically, we don't really know yet. At scales larger than subatomic particles, things generally work deterministically, that is, acting in an intricate and unbroken chain of causality stretching back to the Big Bang. Everything you have ever done or ever will do was determined at the instant of creation.

Quantum mechanics revealed some qualities of the universe that appear to behave probabilistically. There was a huge debate between Einstein and the determinists on one side and Niels Bohr and the quantum mechanics/randomness kooks on the other (this is where Einstein's "God Does Not Play Dice" quote came from. Most scientists these days lean toward randomness being real but there are still things like hidden variables theories (the guys who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 2022 won it for dunking on these hidden variables people).

There are still holdouts in the determinism camp, like superdeterminism, which basically argues there is an underlying deterministic godhand behind every supposedly 'random' result. This is probably unfalsifiable and is closer to a religion than a scientific theory.

So if probability is a real quality of the universe, it is very much possible that you actually have free will, that you are actually making your own decisions-- but it feels unlikely and I'll explain a few oblique ways it could be possible:

1. Orchestrated Objective Reduction: Argues that the microtubules in the neurons of your central nervous system bridge our consciousness with the quantum realm, and allow us to collapse wave functions as a singular entity to create our objective reality and essentially act as a quantum computer. Seems like mystical woo-woo shit right? Well consider that 100 years later we still have no fucking idea how general anesthesia works, we can't find a mechanism anywhere in the cells of our brain. But a few interesting studies in the last few years have found a connection to microtubules. Most consider this theory to be bullshit.

2. Allegory of the Cave, or Idealism: We entirely create or singularly experience our own reality, like a stream of data into a receiver. At the instant of observation, when the wave function collapses, and a pixel of the universe transforms from a wave function (data), to a particle (reality), it provides its 'causal history' contained within the wave (in the form of its energy, direction, amplitude etc). Was any of it actually real?

Einstein, questioning the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanical explanations for reality, famously was like "So you're saying the moon isn't there when I'm not observing it?". And the quantum mechanics/randomness people were like "You can't prove that it is". And they were right. Our observations, or at least the objective collapse of a wave function, have the power to ret-con their own history through time. This can also be explained as: they are neither a particle or a wave, they are nothing at all until we create/observe them. Indistinguishable from the fabric of the universe and reality.

In this paradigm, reality is nothing more than a stream of data, and we make real choices with our free will, and the stream constructs a plausible deterministic history. This would have some power in explaining things like synchronicities and the collective unconscious, basically themes in the fabric of the dream. (Interestingly, this idea came from a collaboration between Carl Jung, an analytic psychologist, and Wolfgang Pauli, one of the originators of quantum mechanics, both mystics).

Basically:

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I don't believe in your over-complicated intellect science nonsense! Real enthusiasts know that earth is flat! The proof is all over reddit on globeskepticism.
https://www.reddit.com/r/globeskepticism/

Yes, I am hereby exposing myself, SorenVC, as a flat earther! I have researched this good enough and I am 100% certain that the surface of earth is flat as your eyes can see it. Mountains of evidence are to be found on this subreddit. Even if you don't believe it, just leave a mean comment like a normal person on those posts, or open your eyes and realize the truth that earth is flat.

It is like a GTA map, flat plain surface with some mountains and buildings. All proof is on globeskepticism and I will not debate on this because it is useless. If you are a glober or globie, you will continue to believe the NASA lies. Let me tell you, these lizard people are very real, the lizard peepul are among us, and they are hiding in high positions of government! That's why the world goes to shit right now. So keep believing in your magic free will, or come to the dark side and realize the truth that earth is flat. Your choice. Or is it?